New board connected to V I R cables

[powervan]

Hi whats the situation on following!
went to wire a bathroom today in old terraced property all looked good new board (last 6 months) full niceic member! certificates not to hand YET! looked in loft to find V I R cables! works out from board new cables run 2 mtrs into joint boxes picking up old cables! as it happens its not a problem for me as found a pvc 6mm left in loft and other end just outside the board)) so can work my stuff from this BUT i would only ever connect to old cable if we were doing a rewire very shortly after!! is this a Good Practice issue or is there a reg that said THOUT SHALL NOT CONNECT TO VIR even if it tests ok?? lighting hasnt cpc but thats not the issue as this has label on the board! diff subject the plumber used a junior hacksaw to cut through a live vir cable that just had no jb on end ASSUMING it was dead( he wont do it again

 

[odawire]

Just as you speculated in your previous posts that the customer didn't want to pay for a rewire, and that the contractor explained the situation but the customer went ahead anyway. All assumptions.

I have only ever found one piece of VIR that passed an IR test. A short run installed in conduit all the way.It got ripped out anyway as part of alterations.
I have also come across plenty of VIR cables installed in houses that are fizzling away behind light fittings and that crumble to the touch.
I certainly would not agree to change a CU onto this type of cable unless it looked, behaved, and tested as new.

The OP needs to get a look at the cert from the board swap, get some more info from the customer and go from there. If this customer has been misled in any way then NICEIC need to be receiving a complaint.

LOL I never said anything about the condition of the cables, I dont know coz i aint seen em, I said there would be no problem connecting them to a new board, It doesnt make any sodding difference weather its an old board or a new board, if the cables are kaput, then they're kaput and should be sorted. The question was wether VIR could be connected to a new board

 

[odawire]

I'm just speculating mate, but you started this thread, said my piece nothing more from me thank you very much

I didnt start this thread?

 

[Andy78]

LOL I never said anything about the condition of the cables, I dont know coz i aint seen em, I said there would be no problem connecting them to a new board, It doesnt make any sodding difference weather its an old board or a new board, if the cables are kaput, then they're kaput and should be sorted. The question was wether VIR could be connected to a new board

And I was asserting my opinion of "In all cases but the highly unlikely and amazingly improbable, no they shouldn't"

Neither of us have seen or tested the VIR cables in question. I was just saying that if they had all passed a visual and physical inspection, and all required tests including IR, then I would probably eat my own shoes.

 

[odawire]

And I was asserting my opinion of "In all cases but the highly unlikely and amazingly improbable, no they shouldn't"

Neither of us have seen or tested the VIR cables in question. I was just saying that if they had all passed a visual and physical inspection, and all required tests including IR, then I would probably eat my own shoes.

Would connecting them to a new board make them any more dangerous?

 

[Octopus]

Would connecting them to a new board make them any more dangerous?

The biggest danger would be the blxxdy rcd tripping all the time!

 

[Guest77]

Two things.

(1) when you replace a board you should test existing circuits, I wouldn't want to put 500 volts through VIRs and then connect them to a 230 volt supply
(2) They would probably fall to pieces when handled, so they would be in a worse state after a DB change

 

[Andy78]

Would connecting them to a new board make them any more dangerous?

Would putting a new board on make them less likely to deterioration and help them pass an IR test ?

I am just saying that the chances of finding VIR in a domestic situation that is suitable for continued use is miniscule. I am using my knowledge and experience to assert this. If the cables in the OP are suitable for continued use and can be proved to be so, I will not only eat my shoes but show my arse in debenhams window whilst doing it.

 

[dingledong]

I have come across rubber 2 core ( like a figure 8 ) lighting circuits that were spot on when tested and when taken out it was like new , bent it squeezed it and it just sprang back ; it was only about 30 years ago as well

 

[odawire]

Would putting a new board on make them less likely to deterioration and help them pass an IR test ?

I am just saying that the chances of finding VIR in a domestic situation that is suitable for continued use is miniscule. I am using my knowledge and experience to assert this. If the cables in the OP are suitable for continued use and can be proved to be so, I will not only eat my shoes but show my arse in debenhams window whilst doing it.

LOL, Wow I can see your serious about this so Ill leave it, I daren't think what your gonna gamble next!

 

[odawire]

I think you guys take this all a bit too seriousy some times!

 

[Andy78]

I think you guys take this all a bit too seriousy some times!

Take what too seriously ?

 

[Geordie Spark]

Would putting a new board on make them less likely to deterioration and help them pass an IR test ?

I am just saying that the chances of finding VIR in a domestic situation that is suitable for continued use is miniscule. I am using my knowledge and experience to assert this. If the cables in the OP are suitable for continued use and can be proved to be so, I will not only eat my shoes but show my arse in debenhams window whilst doing it.

Can I have the franchise for tickets soft drinks and popcorn sales please?

 

[Andy78]

Can I have the franchise for tickets soft drinks and popcorn sales please?

Get us a couple of pints and you can have sole rights.... You may be disappointed with the turn out however. ... lol

 

[Rockingit]

If you look in the online guide to Part P, you'll find somewhere at the back it makes a specific recommendation that VIR should be taken out of service as most of it has long expired. From a personal angle, I can't remember the last time I found some that was still in a safe usable condition - in fact the last near-miss house fire that I prevented was perished VIR shorting out and no proper ADS protection working. I've got some customers at the moment that we're slowly rewiring on a room by room kind of basis away from VIR to PVC (just to minimise disruption) - the board change will be happening last (they're on a 100mA already for a TT).

 

[odawire]

Take what too seriously ?

This forum. He asked if it was ok to pit VIR into a new board and the answer is ... YES. You're right about testing /making sure the cables are suitable for continued use but we ll know that! Does anybody reading this not know that the cables should be suitable?

 

[Geordie Spark]

This forum. He asked if it was ok to pit VIR into a new board and the answer is ... YES. You're right about testing /making sure the cables are suitable for continued use but we ll know that! Does anybody reading this not know that the cables should be suitable?

How can you expect me to know? .. I'm just a plumber.

 

[odawire]

If you look in the online guide to Part P, you'll find somewhere at the back it makes a specific recommendation that VIR should be taken out of service as most of it has long expired. From a personal angle, I can't remember the last time I found some that was still in a safe usable condition - in fact the last near-miss house fire that I prevented was perished VIR shorting out and no proper ADS protection working. I've got some customers at the moment that we're slowly rewiring on a room by room kind of basis away from VIR to PVC (just to minimise disruption) - the board change will be happening last (they're on a 100mA already for a TT).

Ha! Part P, because I know how much you guys respect Part P.

 

[Andy78]

This forum. He asked if it was ok to pit VIR into a new board and the answer is ... YES. You're right about testing /making sure the cables are suitable for continued use but we ll know that! Does anybody reading this not know that the cables should be suitable?

Well you're just not understanding that we disagree then. With any T+E my answer would be yes, unless proved not fit for purpose. With VIR my answer is no, unless it can be proved it is fit for purpose, which won't be possible.

 

[Rockingit]

Ha! Part P, because I know how much you guys respect Part P.

We don't. But as far as the OP and this thread is concerned, it's useful to know that there is actually some formal documentation that can be referred to for a customers purpose. It also has a section that discusses VOELCB's as well which is also useful to wave at a customer.

 

[odawire]

We don't. But as far as the OP and this thread is concerned, it's useful to know that there is actually some formal documentation that can be referred to for a customers purpose. It also has a section that discusses VOELCB's as well which is also useful to wave at a customer.

'Formal documentation' produced by a group most people on here call scammers

 

[odawire]

Well you're just not understanding that we disagree then. With any T+E my answer would be yes, unless proved not fit for purpose. With VIR my answer is no, unless it can be proved it is fit for purpose, which won't be possible.

I don't think we are disagreeing actully, but whatever; peace love and respect

 

[Rockingit]

'Formal documentation' produced by a group most people on here call scammers

No, I'm actually referring directly to the Building Regulations - nothing to do with the scams.

 

[Englishman]

I put a new board on for my mate's mother in law just before Christmas.

All VIR, 63 years old, told her that it needed a rewire but she took the attitude that she was 85 (I think) and that she didn't want it done.

All tested at 3-5 Mohm, so was left alone. She is aware that she may get issues with the rcd tripping at a later time, and is well aware that the house needs a rewire but isn't interested.

On the upside, I discovered a melted cable (PVC from an extension of the kitchen ring) that had near enough completely burnt through, in a bit of trunking behind a unit, worst thing was, it had been taped up 10 years or so back and just left to deteriorate

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I would say about 20-30% of the VIR in my vintage cable stock was usable when it was removed and remains so now. One lot of 7/.029 that I only took out earlier this year is impressively tough - you can bend, flex, scrape, rub or bash it and it will probably outlast equivalent new LSZH singles. The ends are OK, not as good as the bits that have been deep within the conduit all their life. The insulation performance is as good or better than PVC (In fact at first rubber was usually better than equivalent PVC which was seen as a cheap inferior substitute). Other samples of VIR are so perished they are effectively bare wires. So in my experience, although it is a minefield, enough of a minefield that one should be avoiding keeping VIR in service if practical, it isn't a foregone conclusion that all VIR is inherently unusable in 2014. I maintain a couple of installs containing VIR about which I have no specific qualms.

FWIW I am about to take my car in for an MOT. The tester is not allowed to fail it just because many other cars of its age are rustbuckets. He is obliged to look at my own car and take it on its merits.

 

[PEG]

Once again,a contentious issue,where the only definitive statement would be to say the final say-so on continued use of the cable concerned,would rest with the person who inspected and tested it. I have found VIR in use,and,in good condition. Admittedly,this would invariably be where variations in temperature were limited,such as in a sub-floor. There are parts of this countries railways,water,gas and sewage infrastructure,functioning well with components in daily use,up to 100 years+ in age. Recently i removed some macerator and pump units from a cess pit as part of an upgrade to digester. These were 60 years old +,had never been removed,and were still working fine...all that P-Bronze hidden in gloop...:stooge_curly: