New Consumer Unit Installation - L&N Reverse at the sockets

[The Ghost]

allegation

Sorry missed it, what allegation??? Can't see any such thing on here, on the contrary. Or were you listening the OP's worst fears?

 

[SparkyChick]

@Vol

You can get basic checks on an electrician using the Registered Competent Scheme - Electrical here:-

Home - http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/

This will tell you if the person you are about to employ is a member of one of the competent persons schemes. As you've pointed it, whether these schemes adequately serve their purpose is open to debate, but it is a good start as they do require you to prove you have certain qualifications, certain insurances etc. in place. I have photographic ID provided by my scheme and if you were my customer I would happily provide you with the details you need to go off and confirm what I'm telling you.

However, in the case of electricians, you don't need to be a member of these schemes to meet your legal obligations under the building regulations and this is where it starts to get a bit tricky. I can't say for Scotland, but in England and Wales if I want to change a consumer unit I either be part of a scheme and notify the work myself via my scheme or I pay LABC and submit an application to carry out the work and they will inspect it.

So the reality is, you could notify building control, pay their fees, change the consumer unit yourself and they'll arrange for it to be inspected/tested to ensure compliance with BS7671 and the building regulations (how good a job they do is probably another subject which is open for debate). The unfortunate thing is there is nothing stopping an unscrupulous cowboy not telling you what his obligations are, and all too often this works because home owners are, in my experience, woefully uneducated when it comes to the requirements of building regulation and electrical certification.

In terms of finding this fault, there are various stages of testing that should be carried out as has been stated previously. There are the dead tests which serve to prove the continuity of the circuits and that their polarity is correct. They also aim to check that the cabling is in good condition and that no faults exist on the fixed installation that could trip the RCDs. If this isn't done, how can you know whether it's the fixed installation that is at fault or a piece of equipment connected to it?

The fact that there was surprise when the RCDs didn't trip suggests that some (or all) of these tests were not carried out. This suggests a lack of something in the person carrying out the work. Knowledge, equipment, morals, it's difficult to say.

In terms of the reversed polarity, this should have been identified and corrected BEFORE the main switch was turned on. A socket tester is the last piece of test equipment I use and serves as a verification only that power is on and there are no obvious faults at the socket outlet to which it is connected. An approved voltage indicator is the tool for detecting polarity issues at the supply and as I say, this should have been done before that main switch was flicked to ON.

We disagree on things (including how you should proceed) because we all have different views and experiences and as has already been highlighted the wiring regulations create grey areas which are open to interpretation. However we are all agreed that this is a dangerous situation that should have been resolved already and that you should minimise your use of the installation.

We are not immune from making mistakes and I don't believe anyone has suggested we are infallible, we are after all only human, but testing procedures are down in black and white and are there for a reason... the safety of our customers and the installations we work on. Not following them is an act of gross negligence that can result in the kind of situation and danger you are now subjected to.

These things will make us question the competence and ethical standards of the person carrying out the work because for us, it is incomprehensible that someone would leave a customer site knowing the risks this fault presents and this unfortunately is human nature because we invariably judge others by the standards we set ourselves.

But, they will also make us question the the validity of the information provided and whether in fact a spark was involved at all, because quite simply I think deep down we would all like to believe that someone who calls themselves an electrician could not be guilty of such gross negligence and have such a cavalier attitude to electrical safety that they just up and leave for another appointment knowing this fault existed. It's so fundamentally wrong that we have trouble wrapping our heads around the fact someone could do it (I'm not ashamed to admit I have also wondered whether we've had the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth), and I'd go so far as to say that if I got called in to clean up after such an event I'd be wanting full details of the original spark so I could report them to their scheme or trading standards. That's how bad this is and as I say, I think we just have trouble accepting the fact that someone trading as an electrician could do it because it goes against the grain so fundamentally we struggle to accept the facts.

With regards to missing an opportunity for the consumer unit to protect against reverse polarity, we are there to protect against reverse polarity. The checks we are supposed to carry out are there for this exact reason.

Please come back and let us know the outcome of tomorrow.

 

[mattg4321]

The one thing that doesn't add up to me - assuming the CU change was carried out by a qualified sparks with the proper test equipment- is the fact that a reverse polarity situation that sounds like it affects a majority (if not all) circuits would've taken seconds to diagnose and highly likely a couple of minutes or less to find the cause. Surely his 'pressing arrangement' can have waited another 90 seconds.

 

[Pete999]

The one thing that doesn't add up to me - assuming the CU change was carried out by a qualified sparks with the proper test equipment- is the fact that a reverse polarity situation that sounds like it affects a majority (if not all) circuits would've taken seconds to diagnose and highly likely a couple of minutes or less to find the cause. Surely his 'pressing arrangement' can have waited another 90 seconds.

He got paid and did one a bit quick

 

[Midwest]

Thought all the guys had given the op the benefit of doubt, that's why they carried on replying.

Sorry missed it, what allegation??? Can't see any such thing on here, on the contrary. Or were you listening the OP's worst fears?

Oh come on, that's being a bit obtuse. Almost every reply post suggests it, myself included.

 

[Midwest]

@Vol

You can get basic checks on an electrician using the Registered Competent Scheme - Electrical here:-

Home - http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/

This will tell you if the person you are about to employ is a member of one of the competent persons schemes. As you've pointed it, whether these schemes adequately serve their purpose is open to debate, but it is a good start as they do require you to prove you have certain qualifications, certain insurances etc. in place. I have photographic ID provided by my scheme and if you were my customer I would happily provide you with the details you need to go off and confirm what I'm telling you.

However, in the case of electricians, you don't need to be a member of these schemes to meet your legal obligations under the building regulations and this is where it starts to get a bit tricky. I can't say for Scotland, but in England and Wales if I want to change a consumer unit I either be part of a scheme and notify the work myself via my scheme or I pay LABC and submit an application to carry out the work and they will inspect it.

So the reality is, you could notify building control, pay their fees, change the consumer unit yourself and they'll arrange for it to be inspected/tested to ensure compliance with BS7671 and the building regulations (how good a job they do is probably another subject which is open for debate). The unfortunate thing is there is nothing stopping an unscrupulous cowboy not telling you what his obligations are, and all too often this works because home owners are, in my experience, woefully uneducated when it comes to the requirements of building regulation and electrical certification.
QUOTE]

The 'regulations' are quite different in some aspects to England and Wales, have a look at # 63 & 76

 

[Midwest]

Damn web site, I said this Sparkychick;

The 'regulations' are quite different in some aspects to England and Wales, have a look at # 63 & 76.

 

[Toneyz]

I really don't know how this situation has come about but if some testing was done prior to the consumer unit being changed it shouldn't. If I walked in I would want to do the following
1 inspect existing intake
2 Ze have I got a good starting point of the installation my MFT is the older Megger MFT uses 2 leads for high Ze test this test alone would of come to the conclusion of reversed polarity at this point.
3 check bonding for compliance and continuity
4 prove what is on each of the existing circuits
5 undertake dead testing this once again would prove polarity earth continuity etc.
At this stage I have Ze and R1 +R2 and can work out design Zs for new protective devices I have ring continuity etc I am sure that you get the idea.
Now I am not claiming maybe like some that I'm whiter than white and know everything and some will now say I have in theory gone about it all the wrong way but I feel that applying a bit of common sense before starting this would of been addressed and rectified the problem now for the electrician (and I would not want to apply fault to him as he is not here to post a reply) is he has on the face of it put himself liable .As for the debate regarding should the electrical supply be left on is this the protective device in now in the neutral with the mcb switched off the circuit is still live also it can't have a good affect upon anything with electronics inside.

 

[Vol]

I promised an update to the saga. The electrician came this morning and within 10 minutes had established that the meter tails were installed incorrectly (ie reversed). He kicked himself for not having checked for polarity reversal prior to the CU installation and he maintains that he reinserted the tails as they were oriented in the previous fuse box. But he refused to insist that was the case accepting that he may have inadvertently made the mistake and was much humbled and chastened that either he caused it and/or he left it that way (whoever caused it originally). As soon as the tails were swapped my wee socket tester responded well with three lights flashing! The electrician used a number of different testing devices.
For the next few hours there was a lot of testing and form filling.
The form was completed on his tablet and he emailed it to me before he left: It is a Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate (Requirements for Electrical Installations - BS7671 Wiring Regulations). A 6 page document with lots of details which I will peruse thoroughly when I have more time.
The electrician apologised profusely for his errors of testing and not paying sufficient significance to the L&N reversal.
I got to look in the open CU while the electrician was here this morning and I took a photo of his work. A snap of the meter tails and some surface wiring is shown too.
As far as I am concerned the problem has been resolved for now though I am still planning to have a complete EICR done in the near future.

 

[Vol]

 

[telectrix]

thanks for the update. however, being picky, i can see 3 possible issues with how he's left it now. i stress that these are in no way dangerous at present, but could cause problems in the future.

1. the tails entering the CU appear to be hard up against the metalwork. where's the grommet?

2. the tails from the meter should be restrained with cleats to prevent them being tugged and putting a strain on the terminals.

3. why are there 3 or 4 cables in the no.3 breaker when there are spare ways?

 

[Ian1981]

Hard to see but I hope he used grommet strip where cables enter the back of the consumer unit.
Vol we are picky buggers at times but at least the electrician admitted he should have checked and no harm came of it.

 

[Vol]

Thanks telectrix. Let me answer to the best of my ability:
1. it's a bit difficult to see but if you look really hard (at the bottom right of the CU in the photo) you can see that the CU is mounted on a wooden panel. The tails actually go up behind the wooden panel which is raised from the wall on two battens.
2. Fair point, Will be attended to next time an electrician comes in (won't be long!)
3. This was left by agreement but is part of a future plan. The house wiring is a bit all over the place (thus the pleasant mild surprise when the RCDs worked first time of asking) and it would have been a much bigger and different job to balance the various circuits across the board. So this job was just to swap to the CU as was: tThe CBs were designated on the panel for the obvious zones they controlled. In addition, there is so much surface cabling with cables going all over the place to surface mounted outlets that I want to investigate exactly what CB controls which outlet. Scaredy cat I may be but I wasn't prepared to do that while it was a traditional fuse box with old potentially disintegrating fuse wire holders!
Not an ideal situation but the balancing of the circuits will take place when the new kitchen circuit is put in soon and another electric shower too.

 

[Pete999]

I promised an update to the saga. The electrician came this morning and within 10 minutes had established that the meter tails were installed incorrectly (ie reversed). He kicked himself for not having checked for polarity reversal prior to the CU installation and he maintains that he reinserted the tails as they were oriented in the previous fuse box. But he refused to insist that was the case accepting that he may have inadvertently made the mistake and was much humbled and chastened that either he caused it and/or he left it that way (whoever caused it originally). As soon as the tails were swapped my wee socket tester responded well with three lights flashing! The electrician used a number of different testing devices.
For the next few hours there was a lot of testing and form filling.
The form was completed on his tablet and he emailed it to me before he left: It is a Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate (Requirements for Electrical Installations - BS7671 Wiring Regulations). A 6 page document with lots of details which I will peruse thoroughly when I have more time.
The electrician apologised profusely for his errors of testing and not paying sufficient significance to the L&N reversal.
I got to look in the open CU while the electrician was here this morning and I took a photo of his work. A snap of the meter tails and some surface wiring is shown too.
As far as I am concerned the problem has been resolved for now though I am still planning to have a complete EICR done in the near future.

Can you give us a quick precis of the information your electrician entered on the EIC?Please

 

[Vol]

Here is another image showing the cables going up the rear of the wooden panel. I have no idea what the entry point of the tails to the CU actually is at the rear. However, the internal work done on the CU looks neat and "professional" so I'm going to assume that everything is OK with respect to the tails entering the CU.