New cooker circuit but is the new consumer unit legal?

[spynage]

A customer has asked me to install a new ceramic hob to replace a gas one that requires it's own new circuit. After inspecting the DB a dual rcd model fitted about 3 years ago I noticed there were no stickers apart from an RCD one. No inspection dates and no old wiring stickers either. It seemed shabby as well and the DIN rail was visible through a missing slot cover.

After inspecting the wiring I noticed the 4 kitchen sockets were fed by a single 4 or 6mm radial circuit labelled cooker. I told her about this and suggested the new DB may not of been installed by a certified electrician because of this radial circuit. She said of course it was and that also the house had passed an inspection.

Anyway I priced a new surface mounted circuit, BUT if I suspect the DB has not been registered should I proceed with the work? On initial inspection there's not too much wrong with it apart form the missing slot cover and stickers and dodgy circuit. None of the circuit's are accurately labelled.

Thanks

 

[Octopus]

Learn to use the "comments" sections of the certs to your advantage. Obviously you'd be fitting a blank where one is missing FOC.

 

[malcolmsanford]

A customer has asked me to install a new ceramic hob to replace a gas one that requires it's own new circuit. After inspecting the DB a dual rcd model fitted about 3 years ago I noticed there were no stickers apart from an RCD one. No inspection dates and no old wiring stickers either. It seemed shabby as well and the DIN rail was visible through a missing slot cover.

After inspecting the wiring I noticed the 4 kitchen sockets were fed by a single 4 or 6mm radial circuit labelled cooker. I told her about this and suggested the new DB may not of been installed by a certified electrician because of this radial circuit. She said of course it was and that also the house had passed an inspection.

Anyway I priced a new surface mounted circuit, BUT if I suspect the DB has not been registered should I proceed with the work? On initial inspection there's not too much wrong with it apart form the missing slot cover and stickers and dodgy circuit. None of the circuit's are accurately labelled.

Thanks

Is that your dodgy circuit?

Apart from the lack of labeling and the missing blank what do you think is wrong with that radial circuit?

Obviously the sparks used the existing cooker circuit and made it a socket circuit, not much wrong with that except the labeling, what size breaker is on it?

As for it not being "registered" there is really nothing you can do about that, well nothing as in regards to who would be particularly bothered. Just do your work to the book, advise the client what you find, and if your particularly charitable you could go around for an hour or so tracing out circuits for them.

They have asked you to install a circuit, not do a EICR so do as they ask

 

[spynage]

Is that your dodgy circuit?

Apart from the lack of labeling and the missing blank what do you think is wrong with that radial circuit?

Obviously the sparks used the existing cooker circuit and made it a socket circuit, not much wrong with that except the labeling, what size breaker is on it?

As for it not being "registered" there is really nothing you can do about that, well nothing as in regards to who would be particularly bothered. Just do your work to the book, advise the client what you find, and if your particularly charitable you could go around for an hour or so tracing out circuits for them.

They have asked you to install a circuit, not do a EICR so do as they ask

Well I'm asking as I need to know up to what point I'm responsible for that circuit. If I'm suspecting the CU is not legitimately installed then how might that effect my circuit and what steps should I take? ALso what do you do if you suspect a spark working illegally. The bloke before me suggested to her that she could in fact wire the hob into the existing circuit with no problem! (the 4mm radial)

What I would say was wrong with that circuit is that it's not sufficient to carry the load from 4 sockets and also the oven which is spurred off it. I'm going to suggest to her that I test the circuit and then make it a ring with an additional cable to the last point on it's current path.

 

[rattlehead85]

You have been asked to install a cooker circuit not carry out any EICR reporting, therefore as long as you have adequate earthing and bonding and means of RCD protection where required to protect your circuit then carry on. Just make a note on your certificate that no EICR has been carried out on the installation.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Your only responsible for your circuit after you take into consideration the effect of your circuit on the existing installation. If you regard the existing installation to either be dangerous or would become dangerous if you installed a new circuit then you can't do the work. It tells you this in the BS 7671.

You are correct that it would be wrong to add an oven to that existing circuit, that is a recommendation in appendix 15 regarding that, and though appendices 2 to 16 are informative they are good guides.

Why do you want to make the radial a ring final?

Either take the sockets of the 4/6mm cable and make it as it was originally intended a cooker circuit and run a new socket circuit either ring/radial as warrented

or

Leave the circuit as it is now, run a new 10mm for the cooker, in case of future proofing

 

[kingeri]

Or go into the nearest phonebox and turn into PartPMan...................

 

[telectrix]

i'd leave the existing socket and oven alone. just install a new 6mm radial on a 32A MCB for the hob. ( assuming that's sufficient for the load after applying diversity ). why get involved with the existing unless it's potentially dangerous?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

A customer has asked me to install a new ceramic hob to replace a gas one that requires it's own new circuit. After inspecting the DB a dual rcd model fitted about 3 years ago I noticed there were no stickers apart from an RCD one. No inspection dates and no old wiring stickers either. It seemed shabby as well and the DIN rail was visible through a missing slot cover.

After inspecting the wiring I noticed the 4 kitchen sockets were fed by a single 4 or 6mm radial circuit labelled cooker. I told her about this and suggested the new DB may not of been installed by a certified electrician because of this radial circuit. She said of course it was and that also the house had passed an inspection.

Anyway I priced a new surface mounted circuit, BUT if I suspect the DB has not been registered should I proceed with the work? On initial inspection there's not too much wrong with it apart form the missing slot cover and stickers and dodgy circuit. None of the circuit's are accurately labelled.

Thanks

lack of required labelling constitutes a 3...

 

[telectrix]

spynage. if you were ancar mechanic and a customer wanted you to do an oil change, would you be buggering about with the clutch?

 

[spynage]

spynage. if you were ancar mechanic and a customer wanted you to do an oil change, would you be buggering about with the clutch?

I might advise them to change the filter though! The oven sits on this 4mm radial so I have to consider wether I should leave it on this circuit or join it with the hob on the new radial. Possibly the difference between 6 and 10mm cable.

What is wrong with advising to make a radial a ring when that is how it should be? On my planet I was told that sockets endlessly spurred off one another were a fault and would fail an inspection. Wouldn't the additional cable increase the circuit rating and allow the oven to be kept as it is as well as creating a ring circuit as was intended for the kitchen?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

just re-read the O/P...

what a load of old twaddle about that radial circuit feeding socket outlets...

do as has been suggested and pull in a new for the cooker feed...test and note....

you are responsible for the work you do..as has been pointed out by others here...and as i have pointed out..oh it must be a thousand times or more now...

 

[spynage]

just re-read the O/P...

what a load of old twaddle about that radial circuit feeding socket outlets...

do as has been suggested and pull in a new for the cooker feed...test and note....

you are responsible for the work you do..as has been pointed out by others here...and as i have pointed out..oh it must be a thousand times or more now...

Why is it a problem to advice the customer. How can it be advisable to have every socket in the kitchen and the oven running off a 4mm radial. My table says it's maximum rating is 23Amps. The oven alone is 13.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Why is it a problem to advice the customer. How can it be advisable to have every socket in the kitchen and the oven running off a 4mm radial. My table says it's maximum rating is 23Amps. The oven alone is 13.

so put the oven on its own then...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

and i hope you dont think the 4.0/1.5 is rated at just 23A....i assume where talking about no correction factors applied here...

 

[NJG28]

What is wrong with advising to make a radial a ring when that is how it should be? On my planet I was told that sockets endlessly spurred off one another were a fault and would fail an inspection.

What is wrong with 4 SO on a 4 or 6 mm radial ? - this is NOT " sockets endlessly spurred off one another" is it?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

What is wrong with 4 SO on a 4 or 6 mm radial ? - this is NOT " sockets endlessly spurred off one another" is it?

bugger all in my world...

i dont know where 23A has come from either...

 

[spynage]

What is wrong with 4 SO on a 4 or 6 mm radial ? - this is NOT " sockets endlessly spurred off one another" is it?

Yes. Sockets endlessly spurred off one another. Should they not be a ring final?

23A enclosed in an insulated wall.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yes. Sockets endlessly spurred off one another. Should they not be a ring final?

23A enclosed in an insulated wall.

so...how many points served?

 

[spynage]

4 at a quick count and an oven. 4 above the worktops. There's a fridge there somewhere probably I didn't spot anything else as she wasn't interested. Are you saying I should just make the calculation for diversity and rating and wether it's a ring or not is irrelevant?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

4 at a quick count and an oven. 4 above the worktops. There's a fridge there somewhere probably I didn't spot anything else as she wasn't interested. Are you saying I should just make the calculation for diversity and rating and wether it's a ring or not is irrelevant?

what i`m saying is that radial can be left to serve socket outlets as its enough given the expected usage...

pull a new final in for the hob + cooker (is this cooker on a plugtop?)..

 

[spynage]

what i`m saying is that radial can be left to serve socket outlets as its enough given the expected usage...

pull a new final in for the hob + cooker (is this cooker on a plugtop?)..

The cooker is plugged into the 4mm radial with the sockets. I don't know it's rating. The Hob is 6000w so I'm guessing 6mm would serve them both, or 10mm?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The cooker is plugged into the 4mm radial with the sockets. I don't know it's rating. The Hob is 6000w so I'm guessing 6mm would serve them both, or 10mm?

well...i would`v thought the plugtop would give you at least a clue..

hmm..clearly not..

i hope this isn`t another lofty...or summat like that....

 

[spynage]

well...i would`v thought the plugtop would give you at least a clue..

hmm..clearly not..

i hope this isn`t another lofty...or summat like that....

Who knows who wired the cooker in? Doesn't tell me much. Considering diversity I would say 6mm would suffice but without knowing the rating of the oven it's just guessing.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

is the cooker on a plugtop?...

if so then you can say 3KW...

and you can knock a KW off that for a start (diversity)...so we have 2KW....