new installtion (bonding)

[IQ Electrical]

The point I made (as you well know) was that a metallic part/pipe/duct etc etc. does not meet the definition of an extraneous-conductive part simply by virtue of its contact with an extraneous-conductive part!
Yes or no??

If the steelwork is bonded in accordance with BS7671 then that does not influence the bonding requirements of any other services-that was my point!
Yes or no??

If no, can you point me to the particular regulation or guidance on this as I've obviously had some pages missing from my last few editions of BS7671 and Guidance Note 8 and I don't really 'do' opinions.

 

[Engineer54]

The point I made (as you well know) was that a metallic part/pipe/duct etc etc. does not meet the definition of an extraneous-conductive part simply by virtue of its contact with an extraneous-conductive part!
Yes or no?? Does that include being tied in ''direct contact??, if so NO!!!

If the steelwork is bonded in accordance with BS7671 then that does not influence the bonding requirements of any other services-that was my point! If the Ufer arrangement (Building re-bar) has been taken back to the MET ...Yes!! if not NO!!
Yes or no??

If no, can you point me to the particular regulation or guidance on this as I've obviously had some pages missing from my last few editions of BS7671 and Guidance Note 8 and I don't really 'do' opinions.

Trying to be smart doesn't always pay off!!

IQ, ...i pointed out quite clearly ''i am not talking about exposed metalwork'' What i am saying, is that in such buildings, where metallic pipework can and often does, get buried in the fabric of columns during construction as an easy route through the floors, ..these pipes will almost definitly be tied to the larger virtical re-bars. Or they may pass through concrete floors in accessible service shafts again often tied to the re-bar as they pass through (before being sealed with fireproof mortar or similar). Will be in solid contact and as stated, often be tied to the extraneous metalwork (re-bar) of a very low ohmic value!! So please don't tell me that such pipework shouldn't, or has no need for bonding... Nothing is clear cut, which is why you need to survey and test such a building construction, and hence my original comment, that you totally disagreed with.

Everyone has the ability to form opinions. whereas you form yours out of a book, i form mine from the realities and the practicalities of a given situation. Pehaps you should think a little more on the subject. Maybe think why you need to design the re-bar distribution of a concrete framed building intended to use the re-bar in the columns as the down conductors of a lightning protection system?? (Isolation) That at least, should give you some idea of the ohmic value present in the re-bar steelwork of a concrete framed building....

As i said, you don't have the required experience of such buildings (and i'm not trying to be funny either) to make sweeping incorrect statements. Your questions above relate more to domestic, small commercial and small industrial units. Multi story concrete framed and structural steel high rise buildings have a lot more involved to them... Many asspects you can literary throw your BS7671 to one side!!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

IQ, ...i pointed out quite clearly ''i am not talking about exposed metalwork'' What i am saying, is that in such buildings, where metallic pipework can and often does, get buried in the fabric of columns during construction as an easy route through the floors, ..these pipes will almost definitly be tied to the larger virtical re-bars. Or they may pass through concrete floors in accessible service shafts again often tied to the re-bar as they pass through (before being sealed with fireproof mortar or similar). Will be in solid contact and as stated, often be tied to the extraneous metalwork (re-bar) of a very low ohmic value!! So please don't tell me that such pipework shouldn't, or has no need for bonding... Nothing is clear cut, which is why you need to survey and test such a building construction, and hence my original comment, that you totally disagreed with.

Everyone has the ability to form opinions. whereas you form yours out of a book, i form mine from the realities and the practicalities of a given situation. Pehaps you should think a little more on the subject. Maybe think why you need to design the re-bar distribution of a concrete framed building intended to use the re-bar in the columns as the down conductors of a lightning protection system?? (Isolation) That at least, should give you some idea of the ohmic value present in the re-bar steelwork of a concrete framed building....

As i said, you don't have the required experience of such buildings (and i'm not trying to be funny either) to make sweeping incorrect statements. Your questions above relate more to domestic, small commercial and small industrial units. Multi story concrete framed and structural steel high rise buildings have a lot more involved to them... Many asspects you can literary throw your BS7671 to one side!!!

My points were made quite correctly and clearly as per usual and referred to installations that probably make up 99% of the subject matter on this forum.

I don't 'form my opinions from a book' I just try to adhere to the regulations that UK businesses have to comply with, again, like 99% of this forum (this sub-forum is entitled electrical wiring, theories, electrical regulations).

There will always be installations that deviate from BS7671 or have additional requirements above and beyond but what is the point of diluting a thread such as this one (a domestic bonding query) with information of absolutely no relevance?

You might as well copy and paste this one:

"Not the case IQ, I did this massive installation on the moon once and of course it was all earth-free equipotential bonding but I used a 238,900 mile long earth electrode and achieved an Ra of 0.03 Ohms but you wouldn't understand because you only have experience of domestic, small commercial and small industrial units."

 

[Engineer54]

My points were made quite correctly and clearly as per usual and referred to installations that probably make up 99% of the subject matter on this forum.

I don't 'form my opinions from a book' I just try to adhere to the regulations that UK businesses have to comply with, again, like 99% of this forum (this sub-forum is entitled electrical wiring, theories, electrical regulations).

There will always be installations that deviate from BS7671 or have additional requirements above and beyond but what is the point of diluting a thread such as this one (a domestic bonding query) with information of absolutely no relevance?

You might as well copy and paste this one:

"Not the case IQ, I did this massive installation on the moon once and of course it was all earth-free equipotential bonding but I used a 238,900 mile long earth electrode and achieved an Ra of 0.03 Ohms but you wouldn't understand because you only have experience of domestic, small commercial and small industrial units."

Haha, ...The very point i was trying to make in the first place!!! Your an absolute cracker, i was just pointing out that you can't always state that bonding is not required just because it has plastic incoming pipework!! But you couldn't accept that. The fact you don't have much construction knowledge of these buildings, the points you made were incorrect. Who cares what you were referring too, if your going to make sweeping incorrect statements, then stick to the subject matter being discussed/referred to, not what you want to spin it round too!!

Oh, you most certainly Do form your opinions from books!! But your dead right i don't rely on BS7871, it has more controdictions than enough... See it for what it is ...A Guide!!!!

Time to grow-up IQ, if you can't refer to anything i've asked, but have to resort on, what can only be seen as childish sarcasm, your only showing yourself up, ...certainly not me!!

 

[Jimmy Boy]

I'm not taking sides but the installation on the Moon..It took me 10 Minutes to get all the Tea out of my keyboard PMP !
J

 

[IQ Electrical]

I answer posts with compliant reasoning, not using my answers to inflate an ego, it's called 'on topic posting'. The last bit was mild humour, I knew you'd probably take it as you said, classic ego problem again...

I see your posts time and again making assumptions on members backgrounds and experience levels just because they dare to question you, another classic ego symptom.

As for BS7671 being 'just a guide', it's a 'guide' that UK electrical contractors might someday need to prove compliance in court etc. "In my opinion your honour" doesn't quite cut it in that situation-I'll stick to the book.

 

[Engineer54]

I answer posts with compliant reasoning, not using my answers to inflate an ego, it's called 'on topic posting'. The last bit was mild humour, I knew you'd probably take it as you said, classic ego problem again...

I see your posts time and again making assumptions on members backgrounds and experience levels just because they dare to question you, another classic ego symptom.

As for BS7671 being 'just a guide', it's a 'guide' that UK electrical contractors might someday need to prove compliance in court etc. "In my opinion your honour" doesn't quite cut it in that situation-I'll stick to the book.

Haha, ...still nothing relevant to the thread topic then, just more sarcasm, ...grow-up man!!!

Think your probably talking more about yourself here, ...you really do need to look back at some of your own posts, before throwing stones in my direction. If i have an ego problem, you most certainly do, especially if anyone dares question your posts.

But have no fear, you can count on me questioning your posts, as and when necessary!!! ...lol!!!

And on that note, i'm off to my bed, can't really be arsed with you anymore tonight....

 

[IQ Electrical]

can't really be arsed with you anymore tonight....

I'll bet you can't! Do sleep well....

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Bloody hell just get back with my Pop corn.............

LOL J

 

[palmerelectrcal]

ok...the steel (being just there to strut the wooden ceiling beams...is > 999 meg ohms..so doesnt count as ecp for bonding purposes....i had read up, an apparently the nic are saying over 7k ohms is the recommended cut off point however most electricains say 23k ohms....
i do know what bonding is for...(it aint getting to know your clients well) ...gas safe wont allow ANY thing elec conncted in their box...
coz their paranoid...so ok i had to run a difficult route to in inside of the building where the gas main enters....and before any branch offs and connect to the MEt as advised....many thanks everyone...

- - - Updated - - -

ok...the steel (being just there to strut the wooden ceiling beams...is > 999 meg ohms..so doesnt count as ecp for bonding purposes....i had read up, an apparently the nic are saying over 7k ohms is the recommended cut off point however most electricains say 23k ohms....
i do know what bonding is for...(it aint getting to know your clients well) ...gas safe wont allow ANY thing elec conncted in their box...
coz their paranoid...so ok i had to run a difficult route to in inside of the building where the gas main enters....and before any branch offs and connect to the MEt as advised....many thanks everyone...

 

[IQ Electrical]

Excellent, so no ufer grounding or extraneous-conductive tied rebar-job on!

 

[spark 68]

Re: The cross bonding at the boiler, as far as I know this was a corgi reg a while back, but has since been discontinued under Gas Safe, although manufacture instructions may take precedence.

One of the many tradesmen I know is gas safe, and they only have to have Part-P limited scope, at least according to my mate.
I know that one or two of the lads on here are heating engineers, I wonder if they would care to comment on this?

 

[Edd]

hopefully people read it befor i changed it

 

[Engineer54]

Excellent, so no ufer grounding or extraneous-conductive tied rebar-job on!

Haha, ...Still trying sarcasm because you can't grasp it!!

OK, let's see if you can answer this without the childish sarcasm.... Same situation, services coming into the building replaced with plastic at some stage, but all internal pipework remains metallic but the building in question this time, is a multi story block of say 30 residential flats.

You (or your company) rewire one of these flats, complete with new CU etc. Are you going to bond those services to the flats MET/EMT as usual, or not, ...and why??

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Haha, ...Still trying sarcasm because you can't grasp it!!

OK, let's see if you can answer this without the childish sarcasm.... Same situation, services coming into the building replaced with plastic at some stage, but all internal pipework remains metallic but the building in question this time, is a multi story block of say 30 residential flats.

You (or your company) rewire one of these flats, complete with new CU etc. Are you going to bond those services to the flats MET/EMT as usual, or not, ...and why??

I'll have an effin' go.....

Each flat is a self contained unit with it's own dedicated supply. Therefore metallic services entering a flat are extraneous conductive parts relative to that flat....they may therefore introduce a potential from another source to the flat they are entering. As a result they should be main bonded at the point of entry to each flat to the same flats MET.