New Member DIY (no electrical knowledge) - Mobile Coffee Shop - Advice Needed

[TTaylor]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and am hoping someone can give me some advice, as I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to these things.

I'm developing plans to start a mobile coffee shop which will be in the form of a converted horse box. Ideally I'm hoping to secure a location which gives me access to a mains power supply, but I need to also prepare my plans for the possibility that I will need to be truly mobile and provide my own source of electrical power. I've been trying to read up on things like generators, inverters and batteries, but without any prior knowledge or experience, I feel like a lot of the information I'm reading just isn't sinking in. If anyone can provide me with some advice in simple terms I'd be incredibly grateful.

A breakdown of the appliances I'm planning to have in my shop is:

• Espresso machine - this will be dual fuel, so I believe it can be powered entirely by LPG. However, it's possible that I've misunderstood what I've read and there will be a need for this to be plugged into an electrical supply as well as receiving gas. The exact machine I'm looking at is the Fracino Contempo Dual Fuel Automatic 2 group.
• 2 x 350 watt coffee grinder, one of which will likely be used for a total of around 10 minutes each hour, and the other approximately 5 minutes each hour. An example of the type of grinder is the Eureka Zenith 65 Neo Coffee Grinder.
• Flojet water pump (unsure of the exact model of pump I will require, but as an example, Flojet Plus Bottled Water Pump. 1.2 amp draw at 230 volts (AC) or 12 volts (DC). Not sure how long this will be in use each day, but a generous estimate is 4 hours.
• 3 x 1.8 watt light bulb, in use for eight hours each day.
• POS system - I haven't been able to find any information on how much energy is used by a typical POS system.

Am I right in thinking that, assuming I'm in operation for 6-8 hours per day and the espresso machine is powered by gas, I could provide adequate electricity to the rest of my appliances by using a 2000W inverter connected to 2 x 100ah lithium iron phosphate battery? I've tried reading up on this and doing the maths myself, but as I said, it all seems to be going right over my head, so any advice and support would be greatly appreciated.

I'm not so keen on the idea of using a generator due to the potential noise and smell affecting the customer experience, and therefore the business.

Thanks for reading.
Tom

 

[Megawatt]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and am hoping someone can give me some advice, as I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to these things.

I'm developing plans to start a mobile coffee shop which will be in the form of a converted horse box. Ideally I'm hoping to secure a location which gives me access to a mains power supply, but I need to also prepare my plans for the possibility that I will need to be truly mobile and provide my own source of electrical power. I've been trying to read up on things like generators, inverters and batteries, but without any prior knowledge or experience, I feel like a lot of the information I'm reading just isn't sinking in. If anyone can provide me with some advice in simple terms I'd be incredibly grateful.

A breakdown of the appliances I'm planning to have in my shop is:

• Espresso machine - this will be dual fuel, so I believe it can be powered entirely by LPG. However, it's possible that I've misunderstood what I've read and there will be a need for this to be plugged into an electrical supply as well as receiving gas. The exact machine I'm looking at is the Fracino Contempo Dual Fuel Automatic 2 group.
• 2 x 350 watt coffee grinder, one of which will likely be used for a total of around 10 minutes each hour, and the other approximately 5 minutes each hour. An example of the type of grinder is the Eureka Zenith 65 Neo Coffee Grinder.
• Flojet water pump (unsure of the exact model of pump I will require, but as an example, Flojet Plus Bottled Water Pump. 1.2 amp draw at 230 volts (AC) or 12 volts (DC). Not sure how long this will be in use each day, but a generous estimate is 4 hours.
• 3 x 1.8 watt light bulb, in use for eight hours each day.
• POS system - I haven't been able to find any information on how much energy is used by a typical POS system.

Am I right in thinking that, assuming I'm in operation for 6-8 hours per day and the espresso machine is powered by gas, I could provide adequate electricity to the rest of my appliances by using a 2000W inverter connected to 2 x 100ah lithium iron phosphate battery? I've tried reading up on this and doing the maths myself, but as I said, it all seems to be going right over my head, so any advice and support would be greatly appreciated.

I'm not so keen on the idea of using a generator due to the potential noise and smell affecting the customer experience, and therefore the business.

Thanks for reading.
Tom

Are you trying to say that you can run what you listed with just a 2000 watt inverter. All food trucks that I have worked on has a minimum of a 15000 watt generator which also has propane. Is this something that you are going to make this yourself. The generators on these trucks are not really that loud and is designed to slide out of the truck while in use. The trucks also have a transfer switch for generator power or local power. The other thing is that the trucks have their own panel.

 

[TTaylor]

Are you trying to say that you can run what you listed with just a 2000 watt inverter. All food trucks that I have worked on has a minimum of a 15000 watt generator which also has propane. Is this something that you are going to make this yourself. The generators on these trucks are not really that loud and is designed to slide out of the truck while in use. The trucks also have a transfer switch for generator power or local power. The other thing is that the trucks have their own panel.

Hi Megawatt,

Thanks for your reply. I was hoping that a 2000 watt inverter would be enough. I was hoping that by not having some of the more demanding appliances like fridges, ovens, grills, and the espresso machine, the electrical needs of the trailer would be very small compared to most food trucks.

This is an area that I'm really struggling to understand, and on doing some calculations myself, I had worked out that the equipment I've listed would use around 1.25-1.5kwh of energy each day. Does this seem ridiculously low?

Thanks
Tom

 

[Megawatt]

Hi Megawatt,

Thanks for your reply. I was hoping that a 2000 watt inverter would be enough. I was hoping that by not having some of the more demanding appliances like fridges, ovens, grills, and the espresso machine, the electrical needs of the trailer would be very small compared to most food trucks.

This is an area that I'm really struggling to understand, and on doing some calculations myself, I had worked out that the equipment I've listed would use around 1.25-1.5kwh of energy each day. Does this seem ridiculously low?

Thanks
Tom

Since you are mainly selling coffee and expresso’s with just 2 machines and your grinder at 350 watt each, water pump at 1.2 amps, 3 lights pulling 1.8 watts and we are not sure what the POS machine pulls. I just realized that you are from the UK and the voltages are different

Hi Megawatt,

Thanks for your reply. I was hoping that a 2000 watt inverter would be enough. I was hoping that by not having some of the more demanding appliances like fridges, ovens, grills, and the espresso machine, the electrical needs of the trailer would be very small compared to most food trucks.

This is an area that I'm really struggling to understand, and on doing some calculations myself, I had worked out that the equipment I've listed would use around 1.25-1.5kwh of energy each day. Does this seem ridiculously low?

Thanks
Tom

Hi Megawatt,

Thanks for your reply. I was hoping that a 2000 watt inverter would be enough. I was hoping that by not having some of the more demanding appliances like fridges, ovens, grills, and the espresso machine, the electrical needs of the trailer would be very small compared to most food trucks.

This is an area that I'm really struggling to understand, and on doing some calculations myself, I had worked out that the equipment I've listed would use around 1.25-1.5kwh of energy each day. Does this seem ridiculously low?

Thanks
Tom

I just realized that you were from the UK and the voltages are different than the US so I think that another member like @pc1966, DPG or @westward can help you more than I can. They will be along shortly to further help you. I’m sorry I can’t help you. Good luck my friend

 

[Rockingit]

Hi Tom,

I've plugged up more horse-box style conversions on event sites than I can remember!

The bottom line here is that yes, all of what you've suggested will survive on a decent sized leisure battery and invertor, assuming that it's gas that's boiling the water. However - you still need to recharge that battery which is 'easy' if you're constantly mobile and going home each night, harder if you're parked up on an events pitch. With the latter, you end up with either needing to pay for power or (if allowed...) using a small generator overnight. If you're paying for event power then just use that, regardless. And if your plan involves overnight generators to recharge batteries then I'd be very careful in costing it out as you may well find it's just easier to use show power.

 

[TTaylor]

Since you are mainly selling coffee and expresso’s with just 2 machines and your grinder at 350 watt each, water pump at 1.2 amps, 3 lights pulling 1.8 watts and we are not sure what the POS machine pulls. I just realized that you are from the UK and the voltages are different


I just realized that you were from the UK and the voltages are different than the US so I think that another member like @pc1966, DPG or @westward can help you more than I can. They will be along shortly to further help you. I’m sorry I can’t help you. Good luck my friend

Hi Megawatt,

No worries, and thanks for the support. Have a great day.

Tom

 

[TTaylor]

Hi Tom,

I've plugged up more horse-box style conversions on event sites than I can remember!

The bottom line here is that yes, all of what you've suggested will survive on a decent sized leisure battery and invertor, assuming that it's gas that's boiling the water. However - you still need to recharge that battery which is 'easy' if you're constantly mobile and going home each night, harder if you're parked up on an events pitch. With the latter, you end up with either needing to pay for power or (if allowed...) using a small generator overnight. If you're paying for event power then just use that, regardless. And if your plan involves overnight generators to recharge batteries then I'd be very careful in costing it out as you may well find it's just easier to use show power.

Hi Rockingit,

Thanks very much for this information. I do have a potential pitch in mind which would conveniently be just across the road from my home, so getting batteries back for charging would not be a huge issue. However, if this pitch turns out to not be an option, I will keep your suggestions in mind and alter my plans accordingly.

Thanks
Tom

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Let's do a power budget based on the figures we know and some educated guesses at the rest. Most machine power ratings are absolute maximum and the typical operating power is somewhat less.

The Espresso machine spec implies that it needs 350W electrical power in addition to the gas. It's not very clear, it describes that as 'Electrical output' instead of input but I think that's a translation error. That would be for pumps and solenoids so only when it's doing something, let's say 1/4 of the time. There will also be a background consumption for the control system when idle.
The grinder is straightforward.
The water pump can't be using 1.2A at 230V as that's 276 watts. 1.2A at 12V is 14W, it's shown to have a small AC-DC power supply brick which makes sense. Call it 20W input into that.
The lights will be quoting the LED power but there might be some loss associated with the driver, call it 10W for the lot.
A small stand-alone credit card terminal is going to be in the same order, call it 10W.

You mention 8 hours for the lights so I'm calculating on an 8-hour day:
Coffee machine 10W x 8h+ 350W x 2h = 780Wh
Grinders 350W x 15/60 x 8h = 700Wh
Water pump 20W x 4h = 80Wh
Lights 10W x 8h = 80Wh
POS 10W x 8h = 80Wh
Total energy usage at 230V = 1.7kWh

Now let's look at what's available.
The average voltage of a 4-cell LiFePO4 battery under modest discharge is 13V
13V x 200Ah = 2600Wh energy available from battery
The inverter will be switched on all the time and will use some power when idling
15W x 8h = 120Wh
When load is drawn, it will convert from 12 to 230V with around 90% efficiency:
(2600-120) x 0.9 = 2.3kWh available at the output of the inverter.

So, you have 2.3kWh available, to satisfy a demand of 1.7kWh. The reserve is about 35%, which could correspond to a safety margin of run time, or to accommodate a loss of battery capacity with age and use. That's not much, but our consumption figures might be pessimistic.

 

[OnlQQker]

Lead batteries/gel and the likes of shouldn't be run under a certain % of their capacity,

solar and a Ctek250se will keep you going all day and night, though you will have to start the van periodically through the night for dc charge.

A shunt will keep you clued up to what's going out and coming in

 

[OnlQQker]

 

[TTaylor]

Let's do a power budget based on the figures we know and some educated guesses at the rest. Most machine power ratings are absolute maximum and the typical operating power is somewhat less.

The Espresso machine spec implies that it needs 350W electrical power in addition to the gas. It's not very clear, it describes that as 'Electrical output' instead of input but I think that's a translation error. That would be for pumps and solenoids so only when it's doing something, let's say 1/4 of the time. There will also be a background consumption for the control system when idle.
The grinder is straightforward.
The water pump can't be using 1.2A at 230V as that's 276 watts. 1.2A at 12V is 14W, it's shown to have a small AC-DC power supply brick which makes sense. Call it 20W input into that.
The lights will be quoting the LED power but there might be some loss associated with the driver, call it 10W for the lot.
A small stand-alone credit card terminal is going to be in the same order, call it 10W.

You mention 8 hours for the lights so I'm calculating on an 8-hour day:
Coffee machine 10W x 8h+ 350W x 2h = 780Wh
Grinders 350W x 15/60 x 8h = 700Wh
Water pump 20W x 4h = 80Wh
Lights 10W x 8h = 80Wh
POS 10W x 8h = 80Wh
Total energy usage at 230V = 1.7kWh

Now let's look at what's available.
The average voltage of a 4-cell LiFePO4 battery under modest discharge is 13V
13V x 200Ah = 2600Wh energy available from battery
The inverter will be switched on all the time and will use some power when idling
15W x 8h = 120Wh
When load is drawn, it will convert from 12 to 230V with around 90% efficiency:
(2600-120) x 0.9 = 2.3kWh available at the output of the inverter.

So, you have 2.3kWh available, to satisfy a demand of 1.7kWh. The reserve is about 35%, which could correspond to a safety margin of run time, or to accommodate a loss of battery capacity with age and use. That's not much, but our consumption figures might be pessimistic.

Hi Lucien,

Thanks for taking the time to break everything down like that. It's helped me understand things a lot more, and the good news is that it looks like I was doing my own calculations correctly before making my initial post.

Thanks
Tom

 

[TTaylor]

Hi OnlQQker,

Thanks for the information and the videos. I'll give them all a look, but the only problem I have is that my shop will be operating out of a horse box, possibly with no vehicle available to supply power (depending on where I secure a pitch).

Thanks
Tom