Just quoting an East/West job - East Array @80d and West array slightly north of West 105d - The new guide doesn't seem to accommodate anything North of E/W - i know we don't do much North facing, but the fact remains it does happen and i dont see anywhere for the Kk factor.

Also PV-SOL is reporting 296kwh less than the SAP - odd because its normally the other way around - spoke with NAPIT to confirm i wasnt doing anything wrong, but it all seems good.
 
The spread sheets downloadable from the MCS website go right up to 5deg from North. Also see the thread started by solarcity on PV design tool.
http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...-green-energy-forum/71852-pv-design-tool.html
The performance estimation tool mentioned in the thread really helps.

For east west, you need to do two calculations and add the results. Equally for micro-inverters you need to do as many calcs as there are inverters if shading is involved - a complete pain.

Give me PVSol any day.
 
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thanks, yes I realise about sap per array, the dti guide I printed off didn't go further than 45d. now I know where to look!
 
now try doing the shading calcs for an east west system....

they only work for south facing systems as far as I can see.
 
now try doing the shading calcs for an east west system....

they only work for south facing systems as far as I can see.


Yep that was the conclusion I came to as well! , Still struggling to get my head around one that was South Weat facing with a tree in the South East ............. (sore head on that one ..)
 
I think it works something like this:

Imagine you have a west facing roof. Unless any object east of south is higher than the roof or the array and close enough to it, it cannot cause shading. If it is higher than the roof or the array, (eg a large tree 20deg east of south), then you would put it on the diagram. Any close objects such as a vent pipe (less than 10m), the same rules apply. All objects west of south up to 285deg (after that the sun has set in summer) should be on the diagram. The reverse would be true for an east facing roof.

Easiest way to get your head round this is to download stereographic sunpath diagrams from Sunpath Diagrams I have uploaded the one that relates to the ECA/MCS guide - 54N. To understand the diagram, turn it upside down from the text on the page. The solid red lines indicate the paths of the sun. The shortest one is Dec 23 and the longest nearest to the centre June 23. Those in between are the interceding months. The dotted red lines are the hours of the day going from 4am to 8pm. The numbers shown are degrees above the horizon. You should then be able to equate this to the MCS sunpath diagram which is represented in a different form. Draw your building on to the centre of the diagram in the correct orientation. (for due west you would draw it behind the north south line). From this you can work out which part of the sunpath will apply to the orientation of the roof in question.

Surveying on site will still be a pain To do this accurately you need to know the height of the array and the roof. I wont get in to snide remarks about surveying from roof height, the HSE, and a need for scaffolding or a cherry picker to do this as it is possible through extrapolation to work it out from ground level.
 

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@The Solar King thanks for the explanation, I actually know the theory, it's precisely your last comment that has me befuddled. In my mind it shouldn't constitue a 'shading object' else why would we have the irradiance frigures in a massive spreadshseet that covers elevation and orientation - that should 'automatically' be taken account of. The same applies to a large tree due south of a west facing roof, almost as soon as the sun reaches it, the tree will be irrelvant (as in a tree due east of a south facing roof) however accordingly to their theory it will have a massive impact.

Too many people on an ego trip designing / writing the document, forgetting it is effectively legislation rather than simply a 'guide' and not applying it to real world practicalities ends up as a 'pigs ear'. Ieven bought the book as the pdf was too complicated to read !!.
 
point is though that as I understand it, the MCS version has varied the size of the boxes used on the sun path diagram to reflect the proportional output from a system though the year, so that each box roughly reflects 1% of generation from direct sunlight though the year... but those sizes only work for a south facing system.

For a west facing system the boxes should be smaller on the west side of the diagram and bigger on the south and east, as there will be proportionately less generation when the sun is facing south than when it's facing west, yet there is only a single sunpath diagram supplied.

it's a pigs ear job, and I ain't playing as we use a far more accurate method already.
 
One other thought. Would the roof itself constitute a shading object for all points east of south on a west facing roof?
that should already be factored in to the PVGIS produced figures for that slope angle and orientation, but I refer you to my previous pigs ear comment.
 
The problem is the total lack of guidance and explanation of the methodology given. My second comment is not helpful but reflects my frustration regarding this. I would stick by my first set of comments. I do have concerns about accuracy. Here are 5 different results for a west facing 30 deg roof with no shading at Heathrow Airport in kWh/kWP:
ECA/MCS 795
SAF-PVGIS 789
Classic PVGIS 713
PVSol/Meteosyn 745
PVsol/PVGIS import (TW6 2GW) 852

The first two are close enough to show where the data has come from for the ECA/MCS guide. Classic PVGIS does tend to understate things which is shown here. Then it gets more interesting. I have had some misgivings about the Meteosyn database in PVSol, so tend to create climate data files from PVGIS via the Valentine website. However, I don't know if they are being created from Classic or SAF. I have emailed Chris Laughton at the Solar Design Company for an answer.

This all about consistency. If we are not supposed to give greater weight to results from professional simulation software, how do we then explain the variation in results? Or do we just say 'likely output will be in the range of' followed by all the legal disclaimers?

On a south facing roof, the differences are less pronounced. However, as more complexity is introduced eg shaded east-west system, use of micro-inverters or Solaredge, the greater the variance. I recently completed an little installation (6 panels facing 245deg) using Enphase micro inverters that would have been far too complex to assess performance using ECA/MCS. This was modelled in detail in PVSol. One main shading object was a silver birch that has quite low transmittance. I was also able to demonstrate that triming a number of conifers to 6M would improve performance significantly. This is an exception, but the job would never have gone ahead using the standard assessment method.

I agree it is a pig's ear, but how are customers to be provided with consistency to allow meaningful comparison of tenders without a standard method? (sorry, just opened another can of worms regarding shiny suits!)
 
I agree it is a pig's ear, but how are customers to be provided with consistency to allow meaningful comparison of tenders without a standard method? (sorry, just opened another can of worms regarding shiny suits!)
why do we want consistency?

what we need is accuracy, not some half baked method that makes it seem as if all systems are equal, there's no way of improving shading performance from one inverter to the next, and that virtually guarantees that customers will end up opting for the cheapest possible system as there are apparently no performance advantages to be gained from the higher priced systems.

all this does is benefit the know nothing shiny suits and disadvantage the rest of us who do know what we're doing, and the customers can only lose from that situation.

MCS should have consulted on this properly, not relied on a pair of experts, both of whom are electrical engineers by training for something that really needs a much broader skillset to produce an accurate methodology that actually works IMO.

This needs changing urgently before it makes a complete mockery of the solar industry - looking at the poll in the installers section, currently there isn't anyone who's stated that they intend to actually use this methodology - while we may not be entirely representative of the industry, that really does seem to indicate the complete lack of support these measures have within the industry.

Put simply, they are unworkable, badly misleading and breach HSE regulations so MCS can take a running jump if they want to try and enforce this 'guidance' as far as I'm concerned.
 
Completely agree with Gavin and I'm not aware of a single client of ours who has employed this method as yet in their yield calculations (could be wrong but I doubt it). As far as opening cans of worms Peter, this one has been opened since the 3rd Edition was released! Both Griff and Martin are aware of the industry's reaction to this from a practicality point of view as well as the viewpoint expressed by Gavin above making all systems appear to be equal, regardless of the specific benefits of a proposed inverter/panel combination.

I doubt very much that any enforcement of this method is going to be undertaken.....time will tell though I guess!
 
I doubt very much that any enforcement of this method is going to be undertaken.....time will tell though I guess!
hopefully a more sensible compromise approach can be worked out, until that point it looks like everyone sensible who's already using a better method is going to just ignore it and hope it goes away.

I guess for those currently depending on SAP for their performance estimates the new method is probably a marginal improvement.

I do get the feeling that those of us who're strongly objecting to this method might actually have to get our collective acts together to do something about it at some point though.
 
I did not make myself very clear. What is required is consistency of climate data which is what the results posted for Heathrow show. This is about the only thing ECA/MCS gives. As this is based on SAF-PVGIS, why not insist that this database is used by postcode in all performance calculation methods.

We should be free to use what ever method we wish as long as they can be justified and are auditable. If methodology or software were accredited by MCS, this would overcome the problem. It would then be possible to show the benefits of system design and specification.

Should also have mentioned I specified 8 REC panels and a matching Fronius inverter when using PVSol, which just goes to prove Gavin's point.
 

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