New socket on ring main - replace consumer unit?

[Hellmooth]

Like for like

 

[westward10]

Yes it is good practice for a company for records etc, it isn't required and when replacing one for myself or my mother I wouldn't be supplying a minor works, same for light switches and fittings.

True I do plenty of family "freebies".

 

[Hellmooth]

I will rarely charge friends, I like to use my skills to be able to help them out, I make my money elsewhere.

 

[hightower]

I think I will just carry on not complying personally.

I'm not saying you're not speaking logically, in fact quite the opposite. I just always understood that a cert of some kind was required for ANY electrical work.

 

[sparksburnout]

I'm not saying you're not speaking logically, in fact quite the opposite. I just always understood that a cert of some kind was required for ANY electrical work.

Probably is. How an individual operates is up to them I think. I do find it a bit odd when people worry about what may happen in the future, following things like a socket change. it's just a socket, or a switch, or a light fitting, what can go wrong, other than it getting damaged? And how would the future "enquiry" know which socket was replaced anyway?

 

[andyb]

B

I do find it a bit odd when people worry about what may happen in the future, following things like a socket change. it's just a socket, or a switch, or a light fitting, what can go wrong?

If you change a socket for example and there's no rcd protection a lot could go wrong. As I said earlier, I charge for the hour anyway so why not just change the socket and carry a couple of relevant tests? The mwc is a simple 1 page doc that takes a couple of minuets to fill out on which you can put any observations on the existing installation. I'm still out of there in 1/2 hour and that's with a cuppa.

 

[Andy78]

If you look on the back of the MWC model form it says something to the effect of:
For replacements, you don't have to provide a MWC, but you can. You should test though regardless of whether or not those results are recorded and a cert is issued

 

[westward10]

Probably is. How an individual operates is up to them I think. I do find it a bit odd when people worry about what may happen in the future, following things like a socket change. it's just a socket, or a switch, or a light fitting, what can go wrong, other than it getting damaged? And how would the future "enquiry" know which socket was replaced anyway?

Be specific, "replace broken socket in hallway" for example. Hopefully nothing will go wrong and obviously over a period of time a MWC may be negated anyway.

 

[andyb]

Of course a mwc could be lost, so could the invoice.
Don't forget the origin of this debate, someone asked if you would do a like for like swap of a socket if there was no rcd protection. In that situation I feel you need to issue a mwc mainly to record your observations. I'm still not sure why you wouldn't.

 

[Midwest]

I did post a similar question about Minor Works for accessory replacement on domestic installations (on another forum), and it was 50-50 split. The pros quoted demonstrating what you have done, limiting litigation or blame should things go wrong, rental properties, dodgy properties, the fact it doesn't take up huge amount of time and just being a plan ol' professional electrician p). The conns quoted home owners have no idea about or careless about a cert, the cost (to the customer) of doing full tests for a cert, disconnecting circuit at CU for tests, locating/isolating appliances and testing only if the installation could benefit.

B67671 suggest Minor Works may also be used for replacement of accessories or luminaires, but appropriate inspection & testing...should always be carried out irrespective of the extent of the work undertaken.

Have to say, returning to this industry (domestic) in the last few years, I have had only one customer who could provide a certificate for previous work. When I have replaced a socket faceplate, or installed a luminaire, I do not always complete a MEIWC. I do carry out appropriate tests, but do not disconnected a circuit to do so. I keep record of the tests I've done.

Anything more, or the installation looks anything other than satisfactory, I will do a MEIWC. And I will do the full tests, and not write LIM or N/A.

Just my opinion.

 

[hightower]

Where does BS 7671 say it may be used?

 

[Andy78]

Where does BS 7671 say it may be used?

notes for the installer, model forms

 

[streamer]

notes for the installer, model forms

I think that means it may be used instead of an installation certificate, rather than it may or may not be used.

 

[sparksburnout]

OK, if we are going to be picky here, lets take the example of the replacement socket. Customer has rang and said it has got whacked and is all broken, can you come and have a look. It is on the way to a decent rewire you have on the go. So you call in, hoping for a bit of pie and mash (hope that doesn't start another debate) and a sharp exit. Socket is in bits, so swap it, do a quick Zs, everything is good. Now, really, what you should do is an RFC test at the CU to make sure there is still continuity, and then maybe all the other stuff like IR and RCD if present. But hang on, you need to do the RFC test first just in case it is broken anyway, before you start, else if it is broken after have you done it was it like it anyway? No time for a cuppa and so on, just sorted a potentially dangerous situation out and got a bit of beer money, everyone is happy including the customer. Now, in these circumstances, are we going to disconnect the circuit and do said tests? Or are we going to move on leaving the situation better than before, and crack on with our rewire? Or maybe refuse to change it at all if the RFC is not continuous? We could spend another 20 mins discussing the virtues of RCD protection and periodic testing and bringing the bonding up to spec, but 99/100 customers will just watch us driving away shaking their head, thinking "just like plumbers that lot....." And THEN we have to write out a MWC cert and drop it off another time unless you have a portable printer in the van, cos Mrs Jones does not have email. It's not easy, being cheesy.

 

[hightower]

@streamer that was always my take on it too. "You must certify but here's a shortened MWC for smaller works to save you a good bit of hassle" was always my understanding.