nic mcs pv installers

[SRE]

That was our argument with BC, if everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet I wouldn't mind but they obviously aren't. Strangley enough we won 2 jobs last week because we use a structural engineer but we also lost one to a national who never use them and were cheaper as a result.

 

[Worcester]

As I've said many a time, we do structural calcs on every job, always have done, always will. It actually gives the customer confidence when doing the survey and shows you know what you're doing. And you can use this to put youself one ahead of the rest.

One interesting comment could put an end to using the click-fit mounting system

fixing to tiling battens is not considered a suitably robust solution

Buy whom? I have the BRE tests and certificates for it and the panels pulled off the rails before the mounting system yielded! That'll be an interesting debate..

 

[SRE]

I saw that too - I'm not keen on it anyway but loads of the nationals use it - that's why they take half a day to install 4kwp and we take a day.

 

[Worcester]

Just got this in writing from NAPIT

Members of the MCS via NAPIT are automatically deemed competent under rows 17 and 20 of Schedule 3. There is a lot of confusion with Building Control at the moment because some MCS certification bodies don’t use the competence evidence to approve installers under the Building Regulations even when they can, and some are suggesting they exclude structure.

DCLG agreed that NAPIT have got this right and that notification through NAPIT’s system is all that is required for self-certification. LABC have provided guidance which is available on the member downloads but which is still not fully clear. One problem is that some members assume that because they can self-certify their opinion about whether a structural survey is needed cannot be challenged. The guide issued by LABC is not bad for judging when a survey is required. If you then have the survey carried out the LA may wish to confirm it, if you don’t have the survey carried out they have every right to demand one.

It is our belief that no scheme should be allowing approval under row 17 without covering structure and no scheme could possible certificate a company under MCS without assessing how the installer deals with structure. This also appears to be the view of government and UKAS

So one has to question the wether what is rumoured about the NICEIC approach is wrong, or NICEIC themselves have got it wrong...

 

[SRE]

Gordon can you clarify something for me, because I'm getting more confused by the minute! Our 6 BC's covering our county are saying that there is no CPS for Part A how does this relate to row and 17 and 20 of schedule 3? If Napit is covering it how is it different to what NICEIC are doing? As far as the trainers are concerned 2399 (might have made that number up but you know what I mean) doesn't cover structure so what does the Napit assessment require you to do to compensate for that???

One of our council leaders issued a press release last week calling for a registration scheme for solar installers - my email to him was suitably acidic, I'm still waiting for a response .... it was his council that kicked off all this hassle with BC.

 

[Worcester]

The building regs clearly state that there is a CPS


The Building Regulations 2010

The Regulations also insert into Schedule 3 three new types of work that may be carried out under a self-certification scheme, and revise the list of bodies which are able to register persons for the purposes of self-certification. The three new types of work are the installation of cavity wall insulating material, replacement of roof coverings and installation of systems to produce electricity, heat or cooling by microgeneration or from renewable sources. The authorisation of this last category of work supports the implementation of article 14 of European Parliament and Council Directive 2009/28/EC on the promotion of the use of energy from renewable sources (OJ No. L140, 5.6.2009, p.16).

It's pretty *** clear that they don't know their own area of work.

Tell them also to read this:

The Building Regulations 2010

SCHEDULE 3
Self-certification Schemes and Exemptions from Requirement to Give Building Notice or Deposit Full Plans"

Column 1 section 17 is pretty clear :

17. Installation in a building of a system to produce electricity, heat or cooling—

(a)by microgeneration, or

(b)from renewable sources (as defined in European Parliament and Council Directive 2009/28/EC of 23 April 2009 on the promotion of the use of energy from renewable sources(17)).

===================================

A person registered by Ascertiva Group Limited, Association of Plumbing and Heating Contractors (Certification) Limited, Benchmark Certification Limited, British Standards Institution, Building Engineering Services Competence Accreditation Limited, ECA Certification Limited, HETAS Limited, NAPIT Registration Limited, Oil Firing Technical Association Limited or Stroma Certification Limited in respect of that type of work.

NAPIT specifically check your (our) records on structural assessments and calcs, their stance is that all MCS certifying bodies should do so also.

 

[Worcester]

@SRE remember it is the company not the person that is MCS certified, it doesn't nescessarily mean that one person can do it all, in fact you'd have to be superman, or multiple qualified like a few of us

 

[SRE]

Bear with me - there's only 2 of us one installing and me doing the paperwork ... We have structural surveys done on each job, cos as you say I'm not superman. BUT our BC are saying that because there isn't such a thing as a competent persons scheme for Part A they have to have notification. So what you're saying is that our registration under Ascertiva (section 17) is that CPS for Part A required under the first bit you've quoted.

But I'm sure I've read this week that someone else rang NICEIC to see if they were covered and NIC said it was only for part P ...

I think I'm losing the will to live!

 

[Worcester]

Can't comment on Ascertiva as I don't know their processes, NAPIT insist on structural survey records / calcs at their inspections, it seems that NICEIC have slipped up on this (they are really keen to sell MCS to all their members, my supersparks get calls regularly from them and he keeps telling them to go away) and have focussed on the bits they know, and have overlooked this part of the process, and are now covering their a***s by saying that NICEIC MCS certified installers aren't covered for Part A.

NAPIT are happy to challenge any BC that says otherwise about one of their MCS certified installers, and are already taking it up.

 

[Worcester]

PART 5 Self-certification Schemes
Provisions applicable to self-certification schemes

20.—(1) This regulation applies to the extent that the building work consists only of work of a type described in column 1 of the Table in Schedule 3 and the work is carried out by a person who is described in the corresponding entry in column 2 of that Table in respect of that type of work.

(2) Where this regulation applies, the local authority are authorised to accept, as evidence that the requirements of regulations 4 and 7 have been satisfied, a certificate to that effect by the person carrying out the work.

(3) Where this regulation applies, the person carrying out the work shall, not more than 30 days after the completion of the work—

(a)give to the occupier a copy of the certificate referred to in paragraph (2); and

(b)give to the local authority—

(i)notice to that effect, or

(ii)the certificate referred to in paragraph (2).

(4) Paragraph (3) of this regulation does not apply where a person carries out any building work described in Schedule 4.

Regulation 4 goes on to say

Requirements relating to building work
This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum

4.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) building work shall be carried out so that—

(a)it complies with the applicable requirements contained in Schedule 1; and

(b)in complying with any such requirement there is no failure to comply with any other such requirement.

(2) Where—

(a)building work is of a kind described in regulation 3(1)(g), (h) or (i); and

(b)the carrying out of that work does not constitute a material alteration,

that work need only comply with the applicable requirements of Part L of Schedule 1.

(3) Building work shall be carried out so that, after it has been completed—

(a)any building which is extended or to which a material alteration is made; or

(b)any building in, or in connection with, which a controlled service or fitting is provided, extended or materially altered; or

(c)any controlled service or fitting,

complies with the applicable requirements of Schedule 1 or, where it did not comply with any such requirement, is no more unsatisfactory in relation to that requirement than before the work was carried out.

And Schedule 1 is where you'll find the Part A...

So you are authorised to say that you carried it out to Part A

 

[Worcester]

Update from MCS themselves:

MCS is not a Competent Persons Scheme (CPS)

Various bodies are authorised to certify organisations (people, companies) for the MCS

Some of those bodies may also run CPS, and they may run CPS schemes for one or more of the parts affected by Building Regulations.

Hence the differences between NAPIT, NIC, Elecsa etc.

Guess when you think about it, what about the plumbers installing heat pumps, the chances of them need any structural work is pretty slim, however they will need to be MCS certified.

Corgi don't do Biomass, Wind or Micro CHP, and NICEIC don't do Micro CHP, so I guess that's where their different interpretations come from.

 

[BruceB]

Is that somewhere on their site? Because elsewhere:

[h=3]How does the MCS affect installers?[/h] The MCS is an internationally recognised quality assurance scheme which demonstrates to your customers that your company is committed to meeting rigorous and tested standards. It was designed with input from installer and product representatives. Similar to the Gas Safe Register, the MCS gives you a mark of competency and demonstrates to your customers that you can install to the highest quality every time.

...... which uses the competency word! However I accept Worcester's point above, but it is moot because (sticking with solar pv installers) in order to become MCS registered, you have to do it via a competent persons scheme (Napit, NIC, BRE etc). And if that CPS scheme body is listed in the schedule that Worcester has explained then you are exempt from the requirement to submit a building notice so you should be competent in all relevent parts of the Building Regs. If you are not then in my view the scheme provider has dropped a -------. It is too late in the day just to say, "We do not assess that part."

It should also make installers ask, "Why on earth have I joined NIC if I cannot self certify?"

Regards
Bruce

 

[Worcester]

NAPIT's view is precisely that, i.e. NICEIC have dropped a b***k on that one and are either interpreting the MCS requirements incorrectly, or operating their scheme incorrectly.

 

[SRE]

Does anyone have a good contact at NICEIC with a brain?

We're quite a few months off our next MCS supervision so I'm not keen to go through all the pain and expense of changing mid year but I would like something in writing from NIC that would clarify their stance. We volunteered the info about our structural engineer so I don't know if we'd have been asked about it or not at registration.

I think it'll be Napit next time they seem a bit more organised, although I do know that they virtually approved a QMS via email for soemone near me....

 

[SRE]

Thanks for this Worcester I've quoted chapter and verse with the help of a proactive loacl councillor and had confirmation that we can self certify provided we have the calcs/approval from our structural engineer. Only from one council though and the one that's stirring everything up hasn't even bothered to respond to the email I sent to the Leader of the Council. MP next, we'll see what he has to say!!!