NIECEIC or Napit reg.

[KashBag]

Hi all,
I am a qualified Electrician/Electrical Engineer from Denmark. I recently had my 25 year old Danish qualifications assessed by UK ENIC because I was interested in doing some test and inspection work and certification when I have the time, simply due to my passion about my past skills (I am in a higher management position currently).
Just to give you a little background (please forgive me if it sounds arrogant). The Electrical Apprenticeship in Denmark is very extensive and normally takes 4-5 years. To complete the apprenticeship you must sign a contract with a company that carries out all three types of installations, Domestic, Commercial and Industrial, including Automation, PLC programming and troubleshooting, Intelligent House Control Systems, Fire systems, Hospital systems etc. etc.. You need to be able to calibrate loops and design circuits using Acad and lots of other stuff. In addition to this all domestic installations, normal houses in Denmark have 3 phase supply, so more complicated in terms of testing and inspection. I have now lived in the UK for 17 years. In Denmark RCDs were introduced some 35 years ago. I was surprised to see that RCDs where introduced in the UK so many years later. Out of curiosity and passion I have now completed the 18th Edition, Part P and test and inspection UK regs etc. As I mentioned earlier I may wish to do testing and certifying installation one day, who knows.
I need your honest and unprejudiced opinion. Please be correct in answering my question! As a qualified Engineer who's qualifications have been officially approved as being above Level 4 do I need to be registered with Napid or NIECEIC in order to install, test and verify my own work or others if I have an Ltd and Public Liability Insurance incl. Indemnity, regardless of the job being notifiable, If I can deal with that myself! I find the information in the books rather confusing. It sounds as if some organisations are charging people to allow them use their skills that they have worked hard to acquire.

 

[SparkyChick]

Being registered with a scheme can help as some companies require it, but it is by no means mandatory.

The biggest issue is your target market. If you intend to do domestic work in England or Wales, then there are certain jobs that require building control to be notified. New circuits, consumer unit changes for example (you should refer to approved document P - there are two versions, one for England and one for Wales and the list of notifiable works defined in each is different).

As a scheme member you can rock up, do the work and notify building control after the event. If you aren't a member then you are supposed to submit plans ahead of time, pay a planning fee and then have building control come out and inspect your work. This fee alone is likely to make you more expensive than other contractors.

That should hopefully answer your question about the schemes.

As for your comment about RCDs being introduced much later here... you are mistaken... they have been available here for a very long time (my Dad and I fitted one over 30 years ago), they just weren't mandated by the regulations until 2005 (I think - someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong).

The key thing when it comes to inspection and testing is to be familiar with the wiring systems you are inspecting (particularly how they have evolved over time - this will be crucial to making sensible assessments as to whether it is safe for continued use).

The other thing about domestic work is simply this... it doesn't matter how qualified and intelligent you believe yourself to be, getting cables from A to B in your average home can be a real challenge that will require you to have knowledge of the various building techniques used in the property. This is perhaps the thing that trips up a lot of people because it is not easy and no amount of qualifications can prepare you for the variety of techniques you may encounter in a single property.

So, if you've never worked on electrical installations in this country, then my advice would be go and get some experience with a local firm because without some experienced guidance you are potentially walking into a minefield. I'm making this suggestion because you've not said anything about what you've been doing here for 17 years, so I'm making an assumption.

 

[brianmoooore]

Hi all,
In Denmark RCDs were introduced some 35 years ago. I was surprised to see that RCDs where introduced in the UK so many years later.

I have not wired a domestic circuit in the UK without RCD protection for well over 40 years. I built and wired my own house 40 years ago with the circuits split between two RCDs, and had been fitting them for some considerable time before that.

 

[Teddy Lop]

The other thing about domestic work is simply this... it doesn't matter how qualified and intelligent you believe yourself to be, getting cables from A to B in your average home can be a real challenge that will require you to have knowledge of the various building techniques used in the property. This is perhaps the thing that trips up a lot of people because it is not easy and no amount of qualifications can prepare you for the variety of techniques you may encounter in a single property.

Ain't that the truth; what exists in the way of training today seems to be focussed on sites/new build, simple skills like fishing a cable or being delicate with flooring are vanishing.

As for the background knowledge for testing, I asked my nic inspector how, when inspecting+ testing was traditionally a role for people with experience and as you say knowledge of both the book and historic requirements, what the deal was with me regularly encountering nic-eic EICRs filled out by someone who obviously doesn't even possess fluent English.

"No comment" was his actual answer.

OP I think you'd be appalled at a lot of what you find in this country

 

[KashBag]

Ain't that the truth; what exists in the way of training today seems to be focussed on sites/new build, simple skills like fishing a cable or being delicate with flooring are vanishing.

As for the background knowledge for testing, I asked my nic inspector how, when inspecting+ testing was traditionally a role for people with experience and as you say knowledge of both the book and historic requirements, what the deal was with me regularly encountering nic-eic EICRs filled out by someone who obviously doesn't even possess fluent English.

"No comment" was his actual answer.

OP I think you'd be appalled at a lot of what you find in this country

With regards to possessing fluent English, well I am in a higher managerial position in this country, and I am not English. You would be surprised to know how many of our English engineers and departmental managers can't write proper English when it comes to professional communication! Language issues are a global thing these days! I have seen many foreigners whose English grammar were far better than some English people!

 

[nicebutdim]

With regards to possessing fluent English, well I am in a higher managerial position in this country, and I am not English. You would be surprised to know how many of our English engineers and departmental managers can't write proper English when it comes to professional communication! Language issues are a global thing these days! I have seen many foreigners whose English grammar were far better than some English people!

I don't think anyone will disagree.

 

[LastManOnline]

I have not wired a domestic circuit in the UK without RCD protection for well over 40 years. I built and wired my own house 40 years ago with the circuits split between two RCDs, and had been fitting them for some considerable time before that.

Would that have been the norm for all sparks of your generation or were you ahead of the curve?
I ask because when I first visited UK forum,s in the early naughties there was a noticeable dislike for rcd,s among British sparks.And even on this forum in more recent negative sentiments sometimes surface from British sparks of an older generation

 

[LastManOnline]

In Denmark RCDs were introduced some 35 years ago. I was surprised to see that RCDs where introduced in the UK so many years later.

In some European countries ,rcd,s have been mandatory since the 80,s.Other countries felt uncomfortable with the introduction of the rcd ,which delayed it's introduction (Holland and the UK for example).Why the rcd became a little controversial in some countries is a question I have no answer to .In the UK for example ,the"Electrical Safety Council " (now "Electrical Safety First) waged a specific and successful campaign to change the mindset among the electrical industry in the UK towards rcd,s.
Ironically it's a charity whose stated goal is to reduce accidents in the electrical industry

 

[Teddy Lop]

With regards to possessing fluent English, well I am in a higher managerial position in this country, and I am not English. You would be surprised to know how many of our English engineers and departmental managers can't write proper English when it comes to professional communication! Language issues are a global thing these days! I have seen many foreigners whose English grammar were far better than some English people!

That's all well and good, but my comments regarded the capacity of those carrying out EICRs to reference technical documents and understand British specific systems, I did not mention foreigners or their English skills, although as you've brought it up I'd suggest you leave the office and visit a few building sites before commenting further! It's not unusual to be the only person capable of basic communication in English some days...

Although that's enough about plumbers..

 

[KashBag]

That's all well and good, but my comments regarded the capacity of those carrying out EICRs to reference technical documents and understand British specific systems, I did not mention foreigners or their English skills, although as you've brought it up I'd suggest you leave the office and visit a few building sites before commenting further! It's not unusual to be the only person capable of basic communication in English some days...

Although that's enough about plumbers..

Hi Ted, do not get too emotional mate You know what you meant and I know what I meant mate . Forget it. I am 60 Years old, my intention is to completer the refresher Inspection&test and certification course next month andisuue certificates for friends, and then gradually do certification when I retire in 4 Years time. No major installation work etc. I dont want to be pulling cables. . Perhaps just smaller installs, not requiring the usage of a high ladder.
Mind you, I have been a director for the past 20 years. Reason is I want to keep myself busy, using my young days qualifications. Does it make sense? Do you think it will be a waste of time, or is it worth encouraging?
Cross fingers with England tonight, they played really well last game!

 

[UNG]

IMO the NICEIC and NAPIT are two quangos that have made a laughing stock of the UK's electrical industry aided and abetted by the Labour government that introduced Part P and the City & Guilds who don't appear to enforce any of the entry requirements they set to their courses and exams
I do wonder how this new Labour government is actually going to build all these new houses and kick start industry to create growth when all the construction and engineering skillsets are so depleted these days

 

[Yellowhammer]

IMO the NICEIC and NAPIT are two quangos that have made a laughing stock of the UK's electrical industry aided and abetted by the Labour government that introduced Part P and the City & Guilds who don't appear to enforce any of the entry requirements they set to their courses and exams
I do wonder how this new Labour government is actually going to build all these new houses and kick start industry to create growth when all the construction and engineering skillsets are so depleted these days

Concerning isn't it. I fear it's just going to lead to reduction in standards and entry requirements and flood the industry with even more poor practice. Not to mention further fuelling the current race to the bottom..