Nightmare of a day. RCD tripiing under any load

[brizospark]

Have had one of them days. I had a board change to do and a few other bits and bobs so everything was going great until I tried to put power back on.

Basically I have replaced a 3036 board with a split load Wylex board. One half of the board is working fine but the other half's RCD is tripping as soon as anything is plugged into it.

If I remove all plugs from sockets then the RCD holds but as soon as I plug anything in, kettle, sky box, TV, it trips instantly. On this side of the board is the cooker, 1 x lighting circuit and 2 x ring mains, funny enough the RCD isn't tripping when the lighting circuit or cooker is on.

Now I have checked that I have neutrals from correct circuits going to the correct neutral bar, several times and these are OK. I tried replacing the RCD itself with the one that was OK and it still tripped. What else is strange is that the kitchen ring is on the side of the board which is fine but if I plug anything into a kitchen socket the RCD which isnt even protecting this is tripping!! I opened up sockets and everything looked OK but it was getting late on so I replaced the offending RCD with a main switch I had in van just so the couple have power on tonight before I go back again tomorrow. Switched on with RCD removed and everything fine.

Anyone had experience with this problem before? Any advice much appreciated

 

[Paultrim123321]

I'm still struggling to grasp how an engineer is requested to change a CU without testing? Surely someone must have carried an EICR for the request to be made??
Then, I can't understand how engineers do not submit test certs as standard for a CU change? How can you charge extra for a document which is required by regulations?

 

[LED Lighting]

No EICR is required, most of my CU changes come from the client just wanting to upgrade to an RCD after seeing a campaign in my local paper placed inline with a campaign I'm running along with the ESC about RCDs

 

[ipf]

I'm still struggling to grasp how an engineer is requested to change a CU without testing? Surely someone must have carried an EICR for the request to be made??
Then, I can't understand how engineers do not submit test certs as standard for a CU change? How can you charge extra for a document which is required by regulations?

Excuse me, if I am being ignorant, but who are these 'engineers' ?

 

[oldtimer]

In the NECIEC world you would do a EICR before a CU change but in the real world that aint going to happen hence why I do a global IR test and ZE PFC then check the earthing 30 minutes tops so at least I have a good idea what I am going into or not the case in a 1950s house wired in MICC and most of the cables <2meg

 

[brizospark]

I'm still struggling to grasp how an engineer is requested to change a CU without testing? Surely someone must have carried an EICR for the request to be made??
Then, I can't understand how engineers do not submit test certs as standard for a CU change? How can you charge extra for a document which is required by regulations?

WTF? what if the customer just decides it's time to get their consumer unit upgraded? This forum has went mad!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

There are two ways of quoting for a requested CU change.

1.Spend time carrying out tests to establish if the CU change is going to go smoothly...in order to be sure a simple IR test is insufficient,continuity and ring continuity tests would need to be carried out as well.You are going to look a tool if you declare the install fit at the quoting visit IR test and then find during the change that a ring is broken and extra cost is involved after all.All this would be FOC if you then fail to get the job.
2. (my way).....The quote covers a CU change and any upgrades to earthing/bonding,as well as a full test prior to energising.It is made clear that testing may show up unseen problems which the client will be made aware of and may incur extra cost to rectify.

Both ways are equally valid IMO...take your choice.
No 2 has worked perfectly well for us ever since CU changes became fashionable and I expect it to continue to as well.

 

[Paultrim123321]

My point is that someone would replace a CU without prior inspection. It's been covered in great detail on here recently why some would or some wouldn't. For me, I would carry out testing prior and post CU replacement, but that's my opinion and I'm certainly not resulting to bad language or being aggressive to state it.

 

[LED Lighting]

There is something that most on here are forgetting.
A Quote is a fixed price for doing a job - can not be increased or decreased unless you issue a refund.
An Estimate may change by a little or a lot!

if you quote £300 for a CU change then you must change that CU for £300 and any extra work you find to allow you to change that CU you must legally cover out of you a*** pocket.

if you provide a written quote for CU change then invoice for £600 due to remedial work to allow you to change CU the customer could legally only pay £300 and tell you to FO and no court in the land will back you!

 

[LED Lighting]

With regards to testing a job 3hrs away I test it 2 mins before starting the Job. Prior to then I issue an estimate with conditions, then issue a quote for doing the work depending on what I find.

Estimates are normally provided over the phone for these with clear advice about bonding and faults.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Thanks to everyone for replies, first of all I have to agree with wirepuller on his quote that when running a business it is simply unrealistic to carry out testing before quoting a customer for a board change. So well done to you for your honesty. I do, however always carry out a visual check to see that the condition of the wiring is in suitable condition to re-terminate into a replacement consumer unit. There have been many occasions where I have politely declined to replace the consumer unit stating that an upgrade of the wiring would be required

Secondly I always provide certification post board change. On this occasion I had started the board change late on in the day and encountered this problem late on. I, of course, restored power to the property temporarily and then first thing in the morning revisited property where, thanks to some of the more helpful comments, I managed to quickly trace the fault to a junction box below the floor which had a damaged cable resulting in a N - E fault. This was quickly rectified and the RCD reinstated, installation tested with satisfactory results.

By the way I would like to state that I am in no way a Electrical Trainee! I have been in the trade for a long time and have completed the 2391 and have been very involved with electrical inspection, testing and certification since. I merely posted a problem I was having with a view to receiving some feedback with some ideas of where the fault most likely would be. I must be under the illusion that this was the purpose of the forum. It did seen though that as soon as some criticism was raised a lot of other forum members jumped on the bandwagon, slating me, presuming I was a Electrical Trainee/cowboy that had to clue or inclination on testing. It does seem that some of the members revel in jumping on these situations as soon as the opportunity arises. To those members I do apologise that I am less gifted than yourselves!!

I wish I did have the time to carry out a full test before quoting for consumer unit replacement but the trade is on its knees as it is and to be asked to carry out a board change these days instead of customers getting the work done as a homer is a rare occurrence in these parts

were still not getting it are we...

testing proves what you can`t see

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I would agree that under most conditions that powering up before testing isnt right but on a domestic CU change where there are no circuits added/altered and everything was functional before then like Dr Pepper says the worst that can happen is a tripped RCD, as in this instance, the fault was rectified. This is getting boring now!

so...you clearly have no knowledge of the operating curves for different OPD`s either ...do you...
like BS3036`s for instance...
carry loads of fault they will....

 

[davethsparky]

I'm still struggling to grasp how an engineer is requested to change a CU without testing? Surely someone must have carried an EICR for the request to be made??
Then, I can't understand how engineers do not submit test certs as standard for a CU change? How can you charge extra for a document which is required by regulations?

Why would you ask an engineer to change a CU in the first place? You need an electrician for that, and they are most certainly not the same thing.

Does anyone else get p'd off by people who confuse the two?

 

[davethsparky]

No EICR is required, most of my CU changes come from the client just wanting to upgrade to an RCD after seeing a campaign in my local paper placed inline with a campaign I'm running along with the ESC about RCDs

Your running a campaign in the paper to drum up work for yourself, seems like a good plan but what exactly does this campaign entail?
Is it the standard 'the world will end if you don't have rcd's installed' style of thing?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

There is something that most on here are forgetting.
A Quote is a fixed price for doing a job - can not be increased or decreased unless you issue a refund.
An Estimate may change by a little or a lot!

if you quote £300 for a CU change then you must change that CU for £300 and any extra work you find to allow you to change that CU you must legally cover out of you a*** pocket.

if you provide a written quote for CU change then invoice for £600 due to remedial work to allow you to change CU the customer could legally only pay £300 and tell you to FO and no court in the land will back you!

A quote can be a fixed price for changing a CU....but it can still be made clear that problems resulting from testing prior to energising the CU will be at extra cost.
I go back to my previous posts,a few basic tests on the pricing visit is undoubtably a good idea but cant eliminate the necessity for extra work when full testing is carried out during the actual CU change.Only a full EICR style test and inspection on the pricing visit can do that,and I'm not doing that for nothing.

 

[LED Lighting]

I fully agree to the arguments of full testing, the only tests I do prior to changing a cu is global IR tests. Good results lets crack on! Not good results then talk to customer and ask them how they wish me to proceed. At least you know they have authorised it.
on day of change IR if not already done and continuity readings any issues back to customer.
you must have it good where you lot (ones who can charge extra and customer pays) are from as down here if I price a job up and even the customer changes plan they still refuse to pay not long if I throw up some faults!