No earthing

[Baker1988]

Hi every one how are you all on this fine bank holiday.
I have a friend of mine who has asked me to change a light fitting in his house it is a rather old house i went to see what he needed doing and when i got there i saw that he has no earthing on his lighting circuit ( infact he has none on any circuit and he has bronze plated swichs and sockets) the light he wants is a metal chandelier type light.

I said to him i will not change the light fixture as it has no earthing for the metal and he started offering me more money to get me to do it but i still said no and said to him he needs to get it rewired or a seperate eath put in but he is having none of it and has said he will get a fully qualified spark in to do the work as it must be ok not to have earth or it would have earth am i right in thinking a spark wont touch this as it is? and am i right to turn this down?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well they require that you hold the C&G2382...thats the 17th edition 1st......its an online exam consisting of 50 questions open book.....its just farcical really..lol...

 

[Baker1988]

I have the 17th edition i thought you needed Alot more than that i thought that you had to have the tecnical cert and the 2391 inspection and test cert which i was told you need to be fully qualified to get the 2391 what sceme only needs the 17th edition

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well i dont know about the NIC...but the other 2 only require the 17th..and a nitifyable job to show em....such as a C/U change.....dont get me wrong...the 2391 is a good cert to have and is a clear demonstration of competence....but you dont need it....

 

[Des 56]

The Niceic domestic installers is the easiest option.however,they all in the end are only after member numbers and the cash ,which is a sad reflection of this industry

If you want to join Napit,they do not recognise the staus of domestic installer,their entry criteria is to hold the 2391 and to have served an apprenticeship or equivelent

Because so many do not have this qualification and the Niceic have such low entry requirements,Napit have lowered their aims and the applicant now have 12 months to obtain it

Sadly the Niceic has driven the entry criteria so low that with just a regulations pass they will accept this,the others have to follow to remain competitive ,the consequence is that entry is all but guarenteed because of the discredited Niceic
Personally I would not touch them with a barge pole,they are a disgrace to this industry and I for one would not want to be associated with such an organisation

Having said that,I don't like the idea particularly of having to be asociated with any of them,but needs must

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The Niceic domestic installers is the easiest option.however,they all in the end are only after member numbers and the cash ,which is a sad reflection of this industry

If you want to join Napit,they do not recognise the staus of domestic installer,their entry criteria is to hold the 2391 and to have served an apprenticeship or equivelent

Because so many do not have this qualification and the Niceic have such low entry requirements,Napit have lowered their aims and the applicant now have 12 months to obtain it

Sadly the Niceic has driven the entry criteria so low that with just a regulations pass they will accept this,the others have to follow to remain competitive ,the consequence is that entry is all but guarenteed because of the discredited Niceic
Personally I would not touch them with a barge pole,they are a disgrace to this industry and I for one would not want to be associated with such an organisation

Having said that,I don't like the idea particularly of having to be asociated with any of them,but needs must

but the reason that Napit want you to have the 2391....is because they have their own version of it that they will gladly sell you....of course the `Napit 2391` isn`t worth the paper its written on outside Napit...lol.....more money..lol...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the Napit 2391 is level 2....the C&G2391 is a genuine level 3......

 

[Baker1988]

I never new that i honestly thought you had to be 100% fully qualified to get in with one of the schemes but to be perfecly honest i think it is wrong that you can join a scheme if you have not got the quals or experiance i mean it is not hard to get your 17th it just proves you can read a book haha what sort of things do they do when they visit you then.

 

[Engineer54]

What you SHOULD need to classified as qualified and or competent is a ''Core Qualification'' and whatever they deem as suitable experience these days, i suppose in the form of NVQ or AM's...

Agree with Des whole heartily that these scheme providers have since there inception, systematically lowered the criteria of what is a qualified competent electrician, and purely for there own ends and interests, not for anyone else's and certainly not for the electrical industries best interests....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well what they want to see would be something like a C/U change...you need to provide proof of having public liability..to the tune of 2.000.000....you need the BGB and the OSG....you need the memarandum of guidance on the electricity at work regs 1989...thats a PDF download....an MFT..or seperates....your choice...with current callibration certs for these....an approved voltage indicator...to GS38.for doing a safe isolation....

 

[Des 56]

I have yet to hear of anyone who has failed to gain entry to these schemes
The assessors of the Niceic are generally just contractors on their approved list who do the assessments as a lucrative sideline,the genuine assessors are kept for approved contractor assessments

There is no "good" scheme,they are all as useless as each other

It pains me to hear on this forum when one scheme is indicted as superior in some respect to any of the others,they are all useless

The Niceic accepted, from the word go,the regulations exam as an entry criteria,it was on the list of comparable requirements from the government list,it consequently forced the others to do the same

The sooner they are all binned,the better,but that will unlikely be happening in the near future, so we are stuck with them

If you have minimal qualification and can fit a socket in your Grannies hall then as long as you have a cheque book,your in

 

[GLENNSPARK]

i know when i had my assessment...it was all very basic....couldn`t see what all the fuss had been about...and in fact when i was talking to the man a bit more in depth about things...he seemed to not want to know really......

 

[Engineer54]

well what they want to see would be something like a C/U change...you need to provide proof of having public liability..to the tune of 2.000.000....you need the BGB and the OSG....you need the memarandum of guidance on the electricity at work regs 1989...thats a PDF download....an MFT..or seperates....your choice...with current callibration certs for these....an approved voltage indicator...to GS38.for doing a safe isolation....

All sole traders need public liability insurance and always have done!!

And for all this required stuff that they want to see, what is the overall outcome?? Your probably seeing far more incompetently conducted work than BEFORE these scheme providers got there claws into your bank accounts. I don't think they have improved electrical safety at all. How can they when there acceptance competence levels are so low?? A Tesco shelf filler one month and a competent electrician the next!!! Yeah Right!! lol!!

 

[Baker1988]

I am trying to get a core qualification now as i do not want to be some one who just signs off and when they find a problem have to turn to some one who is fully wualified to help them i want to e fully qualified i have the osg and the bgb I have the eawr 1989 and also a voltage indicater that conforms to gs38 so all i need is the rest haha

 

[GLENNSPARK]

All sole traders need public liability insurance and always have done!!

And for all this required stuff that they want to see, what is the overall outcome?? Your probably seeing far more incompetently conducted work than BEFORE these scheme providers got there claws into your bank accounts. I don't think they have improved electrical safety at all. How can they when there acceptance competence levels are so low?? A Tesco shelf filler one month and a competent electrician the next!!! Yeah Right!! lol!!

and its some of the adds for these courses n all eng that make me laugh...when you look at em....not spent 1 day on the tools in their lives..lol....

 

[Guitarist]

There is a huge difference between what you can read in a book or what you see on a test bench and what you can find in some old property with multiple rewirable boards and cables like a rats nest. That's when you need to have some experience and genuine technical knowledge to fall back on.

 

[Geoffsd]

I'm afraid falling back on things is no longer allowed - H & S and all that.

 

[Engineer54]

and its some of the adds for these courses n all eng that make me laugh...when you look at em....not spent 1 day on the tools in their lives..lol....

These training course centers are another, but at the end of the day, it's these scheme providers that have been given the responsibly of setting and confirming competence. Most, if not all of these Electrical Trainee guy's from these training centers are NOT competent!! But the training course centers are feeding off of the scheme providers, and there low entry levels. If the level/standard of competence was raised back to the level it once was in the past, many of these training centers would be folding up through lack of students..lol!!

 

[johnboy6083]

its amazing that somebody could take the 2330 exams and fail, or fail the AM2, but be registered with the mobs, and be allowed to trade as an electrician, in any size property. Complete bullocks.

 

[ipf]

It's all this 'domestic installer' c***. Another name for 'half way house' to me. In the past it was 'qualified' or 'not', now it's a case of 'who knows', maybe even who cares ? With a few thousand quid, anybody can consider themselves qualified. 'Electrician' isn't the word that springs to my mind??

 

[sedgy34]

you could demonstrate to your friend what a shock is like by meggering him lol (not really)
he will then go with the earthing option
the no earth scenario was ok donkeys years ago double insulated singles etc with PLASTIC FIXTURES AND FITTINGS
not the done thing today, a sparky wont touch it and your right not to be doing the metal fitting
ask him the question if you changed the light fitting and he went to change a lamp at a later date and had a shock DIRECT CONTACT would he call you to give you a peice of his mind???i would assume hes got the old consumer unit and rewireable fuses too

 

[GLENNSPARK]

you could demonstrate to your friend what a shock is like by meggering him lol (not really)
he will then go with the earthing option
the no earth scenario was ok donkeys years ago double insulated singles etc with PLASTIC FIXTURES AND FITTINGS
not the done thing today, a sparky wont touch it and your right not to be doing the metal fitting
ask him the question if you changed the light fitting and he went to change a lamp at a later date and had a shock DIRECT CONTACT would he call you to give you a peice of his mind???i would assume hes got the old consumer unit and rewireable fuses too

so the no earthing scenareo was ok was it?....so whats the purpose of earthing then?....

 

[Strima]

so the no earthing scenareo was ok was it?....so whats the purpose of earthing then?....

Mate of mine does a lot of work in Thailand, apparently they don't see the point in earths...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Mate of mine does a lot of work in Thailand, apparently they don't see the point in earths...

thats insane.....so they have no concept of ADS and disconnection times etc?....mad....

 

[La Poste]

It's funny you mention Thailand because I have a few friends there.

From the little information I can piece together there are no electrical standards and no electrical regs available to guide electricians.

Apparently a lot of the installations have no earth at all, they were based on two wire systems sort of like an earth free IT system but unfortunately over time the insulation has broken down and has begun to leak with no ADS in place in case of an earth fault.

Apparently there are a lot of fatal electric shocks in Thailand.

This is all heresay because I have never actually visited the country myself but it seems in Thailand the idea of an earth circuit was considered a waste of time.

It may be different in the more modern areas.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

It's funny you mention Thailand because I have a few friends there.

From the little information I can piece together there are no electrical standards and no electrical regs available to guide electricians.

Apparently a lot of the installations have no earth at all, they were based on two wire systems sort of like an earth free IT system but unfortunately over time the insulation has broken down and has begun to leak with no ADS in place in case of an earth fault.

Apparently there are a lot of fatal electric shocks in Thailand.

This is all heresay because I have never actually visited the country myself but it seems in Thailand the idea of an earth circuit was considered a waste of time.

It may be different in the more modern areas.

sort of like a `post code lottery` then..lol....