Notifiable

[drywax]

Just a couple of questions

Would you consider changing a 32A mcb to a 32A rcbo notifiable ?

If you take the cover off the CU and alter it (ie as above) do you then become responsible for the full board and have to test the lot ?

 

[JulianC]

The regs. state that "consumer units are, however, notifiable" but make no mention of the protective devices contained therein.

Pg. 8 'Additional notes' begins by saying the need to notify is based on the risk of fire and injury and what is practicable*.

I would say the risk is significantly higher during a CU change than when swapping MCBs. There is far greater potential for cock ups and therefore danger.

Is the risk of fire and injury from changing a 32A MCB to a 32A RCBO (and thereby increasing protection) any more than from extending a socket ring in a living room, which is specifically not notifiable? I don't think so.

Notifiable or not, it still doesn't obviate the need to comply with Part P and 17th edition of course.

I know I'm rambling on here, but I have nothing else to do this afternoon so I apologise




* I did Nebosh H&S exams some years ago and was taught by an ex-H&S lawyer. The one thing he said that I remember to this day (forget most of the H&S stuff) was that the term 'practicable' was the 'get out clause' in most government legislation that allowed you to deviate from it, providing you could show why it was reasonable to do so. Not sure how it applies here though, but worth a try when you are in court

 

[andyb]

I know I'm rambling on here, but I have nothing else to do this afternoon so I apologise

You're not rambling Julian, you're making good points. You are right about the increased risk but with the grey area and the ease of notification I will still notify when fitting a different opd.

 

[JulianC]

but with the grey area and the ease of notification I will still notify when fitting a different opd.

And that is entirely understandable. It's just a shame that the same conscientious and considered approach we apply at work wasn't applied to the 'instruction books' we are supposed to work from.

 

[baldsparkies]

Ok so if we are registering under part P for a simple mcb to rcbo change at the CU, and we are NICEIC registered. Which box do we tick. Personally I would think its NOT notifiable.

Replacement consumer unit (Nope)
One or more new circuits (Nope)
Circuit alteration or addtion in kitchen/ special location (Nope)
Rewire of all circuits (Nope)
Partial rewire (Nope)
Lighting/Power outdoors (Nope)
Electric floor or ceiling heating system (Nope)
Control wiring including (fire/security/heating/cooling/ventilation systems (Nope)
Upgrade or alteration to means of earthing (Nope)
Installation/alteration of a generator/solar voltaic system (Nope)
ELV lighting within the building (And finally Nope again)

 

[andyb]

I would tick circuit alteration.

I know it may not be in a kitchen or special location, but you asked and that is what I would tick.

 

[baldsparkies]

I would tick circuit alteration.

I know it may not be in a kitchen or special location, but you asked and that is what I would tick.

Sorry Andy, but as you said its not in a kitchen or special location,so nope its not gonna be that one. We can't really go altering the goal posts to suit our opinions otherwise all circuit alterations would become notifiable, which they are clearly not. I cant see the urgency to notify in this instance so will stick by the book which points to it being a non notifiable alteration, or at least would imply that by its absence.
Another one of those many grey areas which we are left to sort

 

[andyb]

I agree about grey areas Baldsparkies, I did say that it's just my opinion, but I do not think that I'm moving any goal posts. Page 8 of the part p document sets out situations that are not notifiable and this situation is not mentioned, it then goes on to give guidence notes as to which is notifiable and this situation is not mentioned. So I err on the side of caution.

The niceic (which I belong to) also has opinions, it seems that in this case they also differ to mine.

I notice that the op did not mention which circuit was affected and whether it was a special location because if it was then surley this would be notifiable. Or mabey not.

Also he did not mention the reason for changing an mcb for an rcbo, this might also have a bearing.

 

[baldsparkies]

Agreed Andy, lots of variables. I do feel its unfortunate that the rulebook can, and often is vague, and in these cases electricians are left to make there own choices. From the replies I would say some of us will notify and some wont. On the upside the alteration can only be deemed as an improvement.
Its bad enough trying to justify part P compliance to customers, so either way I dont think we are going to lose any sleep on this one mate. We could ring NICEIC technical, or ---- a coin, its the same thing.

 

[drywax]

Thanks for the replies folks still no closer to a answer other than it being non notifiable. It's a theory question I'm just learning at the mo,

Both circuits would be in the kitchen current CU has no RCD protection so rather than do the full CU RCBOS would be a cheaper and quicker solution to comply with regs particulary the extended ring final, cables would be/are buried in the walls.

Now the factors I take in to account are

Relocation of sockets(downstairs hence rcd protection) - not extending - not notifibale
radial - new socket front - extension of circuit by 1mtr - not notifiable? - 10kw = hob + oven

I'm thinking because we are changing the circuit we must now offer RCD protection but would the talked about change be notifiable. ie mcb to rcbo

Could anyone say what reg points to kitchens being a special location if any?

The way I see it is that Document Part P considers Kitchens a notifiable area wereas BS7671 doesn't appear to have kitchens under any kind of location.

man the more I dig into this the more confused I get

personally I think I'd need to notify

 

[andekoch]

I would notify as the protection characteristics are changed (by the addition of an RCD). I agree it seems overkill but that is my take on it (and supported by the NIC but they will always err on the sade of caution).
Agree that you are only responsible for what you do so an mcb to rcbo change makes you responsible for the whole of the circuit involved and not the whole board, hence the R1+R2 and insul resistance tests on the circuit where the rcbo is installed. You will obvioulsy note that you could not inspect the wiring and anything else that you cant see.

My basic rules of notification are if the work extends into the CU it is notifiable and if not it is not unless ina special location. Now I know there will be a lot of holes picked in this statement but it works for me.

 

[acat]

I would notify as the protection characteristics are changed (by the addition of an RCD). I agree it seems overkill but that is my take on it (and supported by the NIC but they will always err on the sade of caution).
Agree that you are only responsible for what you do so an mcb to rcbo change makes you responsible for the whole of the circuit involved and not the whole board, hence the R1+R2 and insul resistance tests on the circuit where the rcbo is installed. You will obvioulsy note that you could not inspect the wiring and anything else that you cant see.

My basic rules of notification are if the work extends into the CU it is notifiable and if not it is not unless ina special location. Now I know there will be a lot of holes picked in this statement but it works for me.

Dont see that anyone can pick any holes in your statement and I totally agree with it.


Chris

 

[baldsparkies]

If the circuits supplied are in the kitchen then yes notifiable,no question about it.
You are making alterations to circuits within a special location.
Just gone from a grey area to black and white by saying they supply kitchen circuits IMHO.