nuisence tripping rcd

[kanewesley]

united kingdom...yorkshire

I rent a semi detached house out which was built 1970's

With the tenancy just changed i thought i would change the original fuse box to a modern one with rcd's and mcb's before he went in.

Even though there is no legal obligation to do so and the wiring is still good I did it.

I had loads of tripping probs when first installed as the maze of wiring which has evolved around the house probably had neutrals crossed (split C/U with 2 x rcd;s)

Finally got this all sorted and had the house EICR checked sucessfully.

The tenant has now been in a month and he informed me 2 days ago his sockets were tripping the rcd for that particular bank of mcb's.

I temporarily replaced the affected rcd with a double pole MCB and all was fine.

So with everything umplugged and the rcd back in, i attempted to find the offfending socket or piece of wiring what was tripping the rcd.

After 7 hours or disconnecting, testing, carpets up, floorboards up, decor damage around sockets I was getting nowhere.

AS the wiring to the house has evolved over time it was impossible to know which cable ran where so to get him back online and get the sockets, floorboards and carpets back before it got dark, I put in the 60A double pole mcb back in in place of the rcd.which was supplying that particular side of the C/U.



The rcd is 63A / 30mA.

Can I leave it like this with a 60A MCB in place of the rcd which supplied the sockets?

If I hadnt changed the fusebox for a newer C/U this problem would never have arose.

I understand rcd protection regulation applies to rewires and new installations.

This house has not been rewired nor is it a new installation so as the regulation is not retrospective can i leave the MCB in in place of the rcd.

At least it is better than it was as there are now mcb's rather than fuses and individual circuits now have their own MCB.

Another question, is it also an option to give rcd protection by installing say a 100mA rcd which is not as sensitive....this may hold.

To rive up every carpet and floorbaord in the house and move every bed and piece of furniture trying to physically follow the cabling is a mountain of work and disruption when fitting an mcb will stop this nuisence tripping.....

I wish I had left the old fusebox in.

Advice would be gratefully received.

Thank You

John

 

[DPG]

When an installation is upgraded and becomes compliant with current regulations are there any circumstances where it is deemed acceptable to remove certain aspects of that upgrade and revert back to compliance with an earlier edition of the wiring regulations?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be amazed if this was considered to be appropriate given the safety implications.

Not if it is done to hide a known fault. The fault itself means that the system inherently doesn't comply with any version of the regulations.

 

[GBDamo]

As I see it, if your tennant receives an serious injury or worse due to electrics in that property there is a very high liklihood you're going to do time.

How on earth can you stand up in court and say "yes I knew of the fault but took steps to hide it rather than rectify it"

Get the RCD back in.

Then get some data on the fault.

Is it permanently tripping?

Is it intermittently tripping?

If permanently tripping a spark, with the right test gear will track it down in a few hours or less.

If its intermittently tripping then you're going to have to work with your tenant to build a picture of whats causing it.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm struggling to comprehend why anyone would want to hide a known fault, given the potential consequences of such a move. Genuinely stunned that someone with 45 years of industry experience is making the suggestion.

 

[Tony Reidy]

What do you suggest then.?

Ripping the house apart or putting the fusebox back in??

Find and fix fault like any decent electrician would

 

[DPG]

I'm struggling to comprehend why anyone would want to hide a known fault, given the potential consequences of such a move. Genuinely stunned that someone with 45 years of industry experience is making the suggestion.

Same here. Scary.

 

[goasis]

Mcb's = O/L trip.

RCD's = Earth leakage trip activated by an imbalance in the current flow between ph and N conductors detected by a torroid Tx, amplified and mechanically trip the RCD


So you know they are different but you think they are interchangeable?

The circuit in question is not simply an upstairs or downstairs ring which can be followed round the house but has one ring feeding both floors with radials spurred off it in every direction, and without out ripping every floorboard up in the house and every carpet....is impossible to determine the cable runs.

Yet despite this mess of an installation which also has caused alot of tripping issues (op) your assessment of it is "the wiring is all good"?

Completed a 16th edition course many years ago.

We're on 18th edition now

The consumer unit CAN be changed as long as it is inspected by a part P registered installer before energising.

One can also work on ones own gas installations legally even though not gas safe registered.

I worry for your tenants.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I know we all take the mickey out of the domestic installers (which i am) and blame all poor work on these new domestic installers, but then you get an electrician of 45 years with all the qualifications asking if its ok to remove an RCD because it's tripping. I think there's just as many qualified electricians doing poor work as there are domestic installers.

To the OP, you just need to swallow your pride and put the safety of your tenants first and get an electrician in to find the fault which usually takes me around 2 - 3 hours.

I used to teach scuba diving 20 years ago. If I was to try it now I would put someone in danger. There's no shame in accepting you've lost some of the knowledge and skill. The shame would be doing something dangerous.

 

[Grant1987]

I know we all take the mickey out of the domestic installers (which i am) and blame all poor work on these new domestic installers, but then you get an electrician of 45 years with all the qualifications asking if its ok to remove an RCD because it's tripping. I think there's just as many qualified electricians doing poor work as there are domestic installers.

To the OP, you just need to swallow your pride and put the safety of your tenants first and get an electrician in to find the fault which usually takes me around 2 - 3 hours.

I used to teach scuba diving 20 years ago. If I was to try it now I would put someone in danger. There's no shame in accepting you've lost some of the knowledge and skill. The shame would be doing something dangerous.

Spot on there, I think it all comes down to training and the people that you have learnt/learning from and this forum is a good way to expand your knowledge and understanding and although we don’t all agree with eachother it’s all about learning and none of us will stop learning in this industry always evolving and changing

 

[telectrix]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

 

[James]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

Want to buy an rcbo pod for that board?

 

[Craighrvy]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

You can risk assess off RCDs for commercial properties, it's in the 18th edition. So, think about the risk, who is using the sockets, what's being plugged into it , has there been any issues there previously etc.

 

[BruceBanner]

This has got to be a mystery shopper ----take"!

 

[westward10]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

Maybe obsolete but still readily available.

 

[telectrix]

Maybe obsolete but still readily available.

not really looked into as yet. pointed out to shop owner. sockets only used by staff in back of a deli counter. above worktop, so minimal chance of damaged leads.

 

[GBDamo]

not really looked into as yet. pointed out to shop owner. sockets only used by staff in back of a deli counter. above worktop, so minimal chance of damaged leads.

If they are low load, RCD FCU radial, if not RCD metal clad sockets. Or is there a reason you've discounted these options?

 

[telectrix]

If they are low load, RCD FCU radial, if not RCD metal clad sockets. Or is there a reason you've discounted these options?

cost would be as much, if not more, than fitting a Memshield 2 RCBO (cost around £40) so that's the option I gave him, also because ther are other existing sockets on the circuit, in different locations. Then the whole circuit is protected.

 

[westward10]

These things are not cheap new, second hand yes but I would opt for new. This is the cheapest I have seen from a quick scan plus you get forum member discount if signed up.

Eaton MR30 MEM Memshield 2 30MA Field Fit RCD Pod

The Eaton Memshield 2 MR30 RCBO Pod is a field fittable residual pod unit that can be added to any standard 1 pole or 1 pole + N Eaton MCB to create a complete RCBO.

www.electrical2go.co.uk

 

[freddo]

They are expensive, that's almost the same price as the fully loaded 10way dual RCD Hager consumer unit sold on the same website!

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

John, you absolute mad man. ?
[automerge]1599937805[/automerge]

These things are not cheap new, second hand yes but I would opt for new. This is the cheapest I have seen from a quick scan plus you get forum member discount if signed up.

Eaton MR30 MEM Memshield 2 30MA Field Fit RCD Pod

The Eaton Memshield 2 MR30 RCBO Pod is a field fittable residual pod unit that can be added to any standard 1 pole or 1 pole + N Eaton MCB to create a complete RCBO.

www.electrical2go.co.uk

Good price that. I had a nightmare with these once. Tested a Memshield 2 board and needed to add some RCD protection to 4 or 5 circuits. Went to fit the pods and they were blood the Memera MCBs that these don’t fit onto. Lesson learned that day to always check the type of breakers fitted into MEM S2 boards. Look exactly the same just say Memera on them.

 

[SparkyChick]

As this thread has gone off topic somewhat (amongst other reasons which should soon become self-evident).... CLOSED