old rewirable Db's in doctors..

[infinity]

Got an EICR next week, been a doctors surgery for couple yrs, but electrics outdate building by 20+ yrs.

2 old rewirable fuse DB's with 20 circuits supplying whole place, my thoughts are seems as use of building has changed then some remedials are required such as no rcd sockets for cleaners etc.

But if i do that where does it stop? obviously cables buried in walls but would be over the top rcd protecting all circuits.

Was just wondering what some of you would do in this case?

 

[needasparks]

Has to be the best judgement of the tester to outline any defects from current regs bering in mind if it complied at the time or at all and the benefits of upgrading with regards to modern protection to comply to electricity at work regs and current requirements.
Have offen found frightening a client tends to have an adverse effect on safety and what they have done so best to explain regulations in conjusction with your findings.

 

[infinity]

Thats the trouble, obviously complied when installed, but now the use of building has changed and as i see it so should the installation to protect all staff/ visitors and cleaners.

I suppose being under supervision as there is management for the building rcd protection for circuits buried etc can be left out but mainly cleaners/ general sockets should be protected.

 

[needasparks]

Just explain what you just said. Best to keep it simple but precise. Doctors don't like spending unless its on themselves so good luck.

 

[netblindpaul]

When the building was converted to a Dr's surgery, was it / is it an NHS "establishment"?
If so were MEGiAN or any HTM's considered, as these would over rule BS7671 and would have at the time.
They are also retrospective IIRC, so, if the surgery does not comply now then it is doubtful it complied then, so it should not pass as 7671 also includes a reference to complying with other required standards.
There are more to medical locations than the current section 710.

 

[infinity]

Not NHS its a private clinic.

 

[Guest55]

The buildings purpose may have changed but has the risk to the users of the electrical system increased ?
You have to be the judge of this as the inspector and carry out a risk assessment as if you were a member of staff.
Personnally , and without looking at the job , i'd say no.
In which case i'd code the lack of rcds as code3 , similar to what you'd do if it was a domestic and the regs are not retrospective whether domestic , commmercial or industrial.
Health centres and clinics were perfectly safe locations before rcd's were invented.

 

[netblindpaul]

Not NHS its a private clinic.

Do they undertake "contract" work for the NHS, at all, IF they do then HTM's WILL apply.
Even if they don't MEiGAN will apply.
AFAIK both of these are retrospective, and should have been applied at the change of use.
I will check this out, and also get it independently checked.
However, it is not quite that simple as to the practice being private thus x, y & z not applying.
Whilst 7671 is not retrospective, certain other statutory and other regulations are.

 

[netblindpaul]

Health centres and clinics were perfectly safe locations before rcd's were invented.

biff55,
Yes they were, but were there such a plethora of electrical appliances used as applied parts at that time, I suspect not!
Remember, that there may well be invasive surgery being undertaken at this location, which may well involve electrical appliances in ways which were not even contemplated back in the day before RCD's!

 

[infinity]

Apologies it is NHS after all just checked heres a link to the practice Doctor / GP - Chessel Practice - Welcome

Do you know where i can find such info bout HTM etc so i can reference it to the customer?

 

[netblindpaul]

You can buy the HTM's but they are eye watering in comparison to 7671!
MEiGAN or at least its guidance is downloadable if you search for it.
If they are a legitimate NHS practice they may have access to the HTM's.

 

[Guest55]

biff55,
Yes they were, but were there such a plethora of electrical appliances used as applied parts at that time, I suspect not!
Remember, that there may well be invasive surgery being undertaken at this location, which may well involve electrical appliances in ways which were not even contemplated back in the day before RCD's!

Good point but.....
Appliances would be covered under pat testing not BS7671.
And if theres surgery being done ( unlikely in a converted house unless its Dr. frankenstien ) then you deffinatley dont want to go banging in rcd's that could trip at crucial moments.

 

[netblindpaul]

Yes biff appliances would be the area of "PAT" not BS7671.
However, medical appliances would not be "PAT" either, they have their own rules especially if they are patient treatment devices.
Your average PAT machine would be woefully inadequate to test to the requirements of some of this kit.
The reason I am a little, and only a little clued up on this is that I do work for my local health trust in benign environments, however there are applied parts, and we are discussing my taking on some medical equipment testing for them, and this will necessitate another piece of test equipment, which makes the price of a Seaward Supernova look like small change!

It is the electrical system that you connect them to that I am suggesting could be the weak point.
There are also many GP surgeries that now undertake minor surgical procedures, this is one of the reasons that 710 has come in.
However, this is minor in comparison to other requirements.
Remember also 7671 requires compliance with manufacturers instructions.
For med stuff these will almost certainly require compliance of the fixed install to things that are not even in 710!

 

[infinity]

So where can i find this HTM and what does it even stand for?

 

[netblindpaul]

HTM = Health Technical Memorandum
There are 2 electrical 06-01 & 06-02, they can be bought on line I believe, but they are more expensive than 7671 IIRC.