Owed money....

[DanTheSpark89]

Hi all, i'm looking for some advice regarding some money I am owed. The situation is as follows....

I am qualified electrician who is currently at university. Last summer I worked for a "friend", doing a 6 bedroom rewire and some extra other jobs too, including some general help with some other projects he had. The total agreed value of the works was £6000. I am not a registered business and not currently registered with the NICEIC but had plans to finish and test the works with someone who is. There was no contract as this was supposed to be a friend but i'm quickly learning that this was a schoolboy error.... I do however have some written communications about money etc and I sent invoices at the time.

The works were essentially completed when I went back to university in September. I contacted the guy about the money as he hadn't paid me. At first he said he had £7000 stolen from his bank account, then some other excuses, and now finally, zero contact (ignoring my calls and messages). I have been extremely flexible and would have given him time had he just communicated with me and shown me some basic respect. He is no longer doing that, so I am losing my patience and looking at other methods to get paid.

Obviously now with coronavirus I imagine he isn't working at all and am further losing hope of getting paid what i'm due, £6000 is alot of money to me. Again, if he would just call and explain I would sit back and let him sort it out.

I am wondering what my rights are with this? I am looking at claiming against him through the courts, but as i'm not a registered business, have no contract and am not currently registered with the NICEIC I am sceptical that it is worth me doing this (and i think i'd have to pay around £500 to register the claim)

Any help or advice as to what my rights are would be greatly appreciated!

Stay safe

 

[SparkyChick]

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

My advice is write him a letter, include copies the invoices you've sent that have not been paid. Keep it simple, something along the lines of...

"Dear X,

Please find enclosed invoices x, y and z that are now all more than (however long the shortest is) months overdue. I have sent numerous reminders regarding these invoices but they remain unpaid.

Please arrange payment of the full outstanding amount within the next 7 days.

If they remain unpaid after this time, I will be commencing recovery action for the full outstanding amount and the associated recovery costs. If you wish to discuss these matters, you can do so in writing to the address above or via email (email address).

Yours sincerely

X"

I've had to do this a couple of times and a letter along these lines has done the trick every time. Keep a record of it, may even send it recorded or something like that so he can't deny he didn't receive it, if he phones ask him to put it in writing, if he gets abusive make a detailed note of the conversation and ask him to communicate in writing.

As an aside, has he given any valid reasons as to why he might not want to pay you? Did you complete the works as agreed? There are two sides to every story and we are obviously only hearing yours.

On the subject of no contract... if you have a paper or email trail where money and work have been discussed and agreed, that will go a long way in the absences of a formal contract, because most people won't go and do something for free, likewise most people don't let people they don't know or have an agreement with into their property to carry out works they know nothing about.

 

[ipf]

Bad news. I agree with above.
A few questions.
Did you complete the job or did someone else take over?
Were the testing and certification carried out and Part P registered.
Is anyone living in the house and, if so, since when?
Were any prior payment arrangements agreed? ie cash, cheque, on line?
Were any other trades involved and, if so, have they had problems?

Regarding small claims court. A verbal agreement is regarded as a contract. The more written information and details the better
as it is a case of two parties each putting their case to a judge and him making a resultant decision.
As long as everything is above board, it's not just a case of all or nothing, a sum being decided upon, along with payment arrangements, by the judge.
If you've got your 'house in order' so to speak, it's well worth taking on for the sum involved.
Get as much advice as you can.
As SC says, there are two sides to every argument and that is how the judge will see it.
Get that letter in the post along with an email.

 

[rapparee]

Hi all, i'm looking for some advice regarding some money I am owed. The situation is as follows....

I am qualified electrician who is currently at university. Last summer I worked for a "friend", doing a 6 bedroom rewire and some extra other jobs too, including some general help with some other projects he had. The total agreed value of the works was £6000. I am not a registered business and not currently registered with the NICEIC but had plans to finish and test the works with someone who is. There was no contract as this was supposed to be a friend but i'm quickly learning that this was a schoolboy error.... I do however have some written communications about money etc and I sent invoices at the time.

The works were essentially completed when I went back to university in September. I contacted the guy about the money as he hadn't paid me. At first he said he had £7000 stolen from his bank account, then some other excuses, and now finally, zero contact (ignoring my calls and messages). I have been extremely flexible and would have given him time had he just communicated with me and shown me some basic respect. He is no longer doing that, so I am losing my patience and looking at other methods to get paid.

Obviously now with coronavirus I imagine he isn't working at all and am further losing hope of getting paid what i'm due, £6000 is alot of money to me. Again, if he would just call and explain I would sit back and let him sort it out.

I am wondering what my rights are with this? I am looking at claiming against him through the courts, but as i'm not a registered business, have no contract and am not currently registered with the NICEIC I am sceptical that it is worth me doing this (and i think i'd have to pay around £500 to register the claim)

Any help or advice as to what my rights are would be greatly appreciated!

Stay safe

You say he is a friend

Do you still have a circle of mutual friends.

Maybe he just needs to be shamed into paying you.

 

[DanTheSpark89]

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

My advice is write him a letter, include copies the invoices you've sent that have not been paid. Keep it simple, something along the lines of...

"Dear X,

Please find enclosed invoices x, y and z that are now all more than (however long the shortest is) months overdue. I have sent numerous reminders regarding these invoices but they remain unpaid.

Please arrange payment of the full outstanding amount within the next 7 days.

If they remain unpaid after this time, I will be commencing recovery action for the full outstanding amount and the associated recovery costs. If you wish to discuss these matters, you can do so in writing to the address above or via email (email address).

Yours sincerely

X"

I've had to do this a couple of times and a letter along these lines has done the trick every time. Keep a record of it, may even send it recorded or something like that so he can't deny he didn't receive it, if he phones ask him to put it in writing, if he gets abusive make a detailed note of the conversation and ask him to communicate in writing.

As an aside, has he given any valid reasons as to why he might not want to pay you? Did you complete the works as agreed? There are two sides to every story and we are obviously only hearing yours.

On the subject of no contract... if you have a paper or email trail where money and work have been discussed and agreed, that will go a long way in the absences of a formal contract, because most people won't go and do something for free, likewise most people don't let people they don't know or have an agreement with into their property to carry out works they know nothing about.

Thanks, yes I will do something like this. I had tried to keep it friendly as I don't feel like I have much ground to commence recovery action or things like that. I will keep pestering him. Coronavirus really hasn't helped as he can't exactly pay with money he almost definitely doesn't have !

As to why he hasn't paid me - its solely because he has made a series of business errors and underestimated his cash flow. He only started on his own last April. A mutual friend who still works for him is also owed £thousands so I know I am likely to be waiting a while. Which like I said, I can handle but I can't accept zero communication as to what is going on !
[automerge]1587808908[/automerge]

Bad news. I agree with above.
A few questions.
Did you complete the job or did someone else take over?
Were the testing and certification carried out and Part P registered.
Is anyone living in the house and, if so, since when?
Were any prior payment arrangements agreed? ie cash, cheque, on line?
Were any other trades involved and, if so, have they had problems?

Regarding small claims court. A verbal agreement is regarded as a contract. The more written information and details the better
as it is a case of two parties each putting their case to a judge and him making a resultant decision.
As long as everything is above board, it's not just a case of all or nothing, a sum being decided upon, along with payment arrangements, by the judge.
If you've got your 'house in order' so to speak, it's well worth taking on for the sum involved.
Get as much advice as you can.
As SC says, there are two sides to every argument and that is how the judge will see it.
Get that letter in the post along with an email.

Job was to be tested and signed off by a part p registered electrician. I don't know if that ever ended up happening.

No one was living in the house, the chap who owned it was renting nearby and visited regularly to see the progress. I heard through a mutual friend that his family have since moved in.

He paid me for 4 days work earlier in the year in the form of a bank transfer (which was 2 weeks late and should have been a red flag! ugh) other than that there are very little written communications between us. I have one message he sent back in october saying that he couldn't pay me yet because his bank account had been hacked into (hmm) but other than that not alot, other than me messaging him weekly asking for payment updates

The only other trade I know of is a painter he had/has working for him (who is also a mate of mine) who is also owed money! And as he still works for him/will be working for him I know he will get paid before me, so until he gets paid I definitely wont...

Like I said im not a registered business but at the same time I knew I wasn't going to be earning enough money to pay tax this year (as I was only working for that summer, nothing more) But i don't know if that leaves me looking suspicious and thus have no hope in claiming
[automerge]1587808956[/automerge]

You say he is a friend

Do you still have a circle of mutual friends.

Maybe he just needs to be shamed into paying you.

Yes I had considered a public facebook post or getting on to his partner. I have been resisting these sort of tactics until now as I didn't want to risk not getting it at all ....

 

[littlespark]

Follow the correct procedures, court or specialist collection firms.
DONT go down the name and shame on Facebook route because it just makes you out to the troublemaker.

 

[DanTheSpark89]

Follow the correct procedures, court or specialist collection firms.
DONT go down the name and shame on Facebook route because it just makes you out to the troublemaker.

Totally agree with this mate just concerned that I don't have much legal backing to make a claim, and it will cost me to do so.

I may just wait until corona blows over anyway as it feels pointless to try and get anything right now

 

[SparkyChick]

You may not have a fully written contract, but if you have evidence there was an agreement (the fact you went and did work and that he allowed you to is reasonably good evidence of this, and you have some communications between the two of you which sound as if they include scope and price) then you have a reasonable chance of recovery if it goes to court.

Most people will want to avoid it going to court because having a judgement against you can cause future financial problems. This is why the mere threat of recovery action will work in a lot of cases, not all, but most people if they are thinking straight will want to avoid involving courts.

His financial problems are none of your concern. He owes you money, as evidenced by the invoices (which from the sounds of it, he hasn't disputed) so regardless of whether he's a mate or not (I would suggest that after this is dealt with he won't be, or at least if he were my 'mate' he wouldn't be for very much longer) you need to start taking action sooner rather than later, even if your efforts only result in some communication where he states he'll pay you when the lockdown is over or something like that because that can help your case down the line because he will have acknowledged he owes you money and that he intends to pay. If he then reneges on that you can take further action.

Personally, I wouldn't sit on it any longer, but then I wouldn't have left it this long either.

 

[davesparks]

Like I said im not a registered business but at the same time I knew I wasn't going to be earning enough money to pay tax this year (as I was only working for that summer, nothing more) But i don't know if that leaves me looking suspicious and thus have no hope in claiming

Yes I had considered a public facebook post or getting on to his partner. I have been resisting these sort of tactics until now as I didn't want to risk not getting it at all ....

You don't need to be a registered business, but you must declare the income on your tax return, even if it is well under the tax threshold.
But that doesn't affect you chasing the money as you declare the income for the tax year when you receive it, not for the year you issue the invoice.

 

[littlespark]

Get the ball rolling now with a solicitor rather than waiting until lockdown finishes.
A letter from a solicitor now shows that you’re serious, and they might pay up.

 

[Risteard]

you declare the income for the tax year when you receive it, not for the year you issue the invoice.

That's for cash accounting.

Accruals accounting would require it to be declared for the invoice year, with a bad debt against it, and then resolved against this the following tax year.

 

[DanTheSpark89]

You may not have a fully written contract, but if you have evidence there was an agreement (the fact you went and did work and that he allowed you to is reasonably good evidence of this, and you have some communications between the two of you which sound as if they include scope and price) then you have a reasonable chance of recovery if it goes to court.

Most people will want to avoid it going to court because having a judgement against you can cause future financial problems. This is why the mere threat of recovery action will work in a lot of cases, not all, but most people if they are thinking straight will want to avoid involving courts.

His financial problems are none of your concern. He owes you money, as evidenced by the invoices (which from the sounds of it, he hasn't disputed) so regardless of whether he's a mate or not (I would suggest that after this is dealt with he won't be, or at least if he were my 'mate' he wouldn't be for very much longer) you need to start taking action sooner rather than later, even if your efforts only result in some communication where he states he'll pay you when the lockdown is over or something like that because that can help your case down the line because he will have acknowledged he owes you money and that he intends to pay. If he then reneges on that you can take further action.

Personally, I wouldn't sit on it any longer, but then I wouldn't have left it this long either.

Thanks, this is helpful to know!
[automerge]1587827664[/automerge]

Get the ball rolling now with a solicitor rather than waiting until lockdown finishes.
A letter from a solicitor now shows that you’re serious, and they might pay up.

Yea cheers, i've just enquired with a few solicitors. I have no experience with this kind of thing so I will see what they come back with!

 

[davesparks]

That's for cash accounting.

Accruals accounting would require it to be declared for the invoice year, with a bad debt against it, and then resolved against this the following tax year.

Where on a tax return form do you record bad debts?

 

[PEG]

Hi,is the money owed,for labour only?

 

[Vortigern]

I have pm you regards action you can take. Look at the envelope on the blue bar.