Panel Outputs. A newbie needs some advice please. | Page 2 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Panel Outputs. A newbie needs some advice please. in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

it looks like you have shading of some nature (maybe bird droppings) on the smaller array, sufficient to knock out 2-3 strings of cells in bright sunlight but not in cloudy weather.

Or one of the panels on the smaller array has particularly bad cells in it / is actually a much lower rated panel.

All panels are connected in the strings though.
 
Your 1kW inverter has an MPPT range of 50 - 320V. It will operate right down to 47v. So the panels, with a nominal Vmp (operating voltage) @ STC of 30.5V x 4 will operate the inverter ... but ... the inverter would much prefer to see higher voltages. In fact, your little 1kW inverter can take up to 450VDC from the panels, and would very much prefer the voltage to be around 300V (that's why 300V is the recommended and rated voltage for this inverter), if it could choose for itself!

The panels are not the issue, they are working fine - it's the inverter that is the issue. While there are several smaller inverters that will run at lower voltages it's quite common to find they will lose a lot of power at sub-200V or lower. The boost/buck circuits can use a lot just converting the lower voltages to a usable AC 230/240V level. The inverter can be a lot more inefficient at low voltages due to what is called "Voltage derating". Almost all manufacturers (even the ones I'd recommend like SMA or Fronius) really don't like to talk about this or publicise it. But here's an example from one manual: (fig. 21, page 84) http://www.energymatters.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/aurora-2000-au.pdf

You can see that once DC input voltage for the above ABB inverter drops much below what the inverter is trying to output, the losses get progressively worse as DC voltage works. This inverter is often used for short strings as installers know it will operate down to 90v. Handy! But ... at a price! At 200V DC in, it's fine - but if you used say 4 of your panels, (meaning 120V operating voltage, right?), then that's always going to be more than the published 90V that that inverter can go down to - so it's all good, yes? Well, no. If you tried that, the lower voltage than the inverter likes means that at 120V you will lose maybe 30% or so of the expected output. But most people, even many installers, don't know that. And most manuals won't tell them! :p :)

I have no idea how much your inverter might lose at low string voltages, but this is a very common thing for inverters, and I doubt very much whether yours is any different - it generally is an issue that historically has shown most in smaller cheaper Chinese inverters - so maybe food for thought. :)

What small inverters really need in these situations is higher-voltage panels - the older 5" celled ones were very handy for that, nowadays there are only a couple panels like Sunpowers (not Sunmodules!) that have that high voltage.
 
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I've just noticed that there seem to be 2 different sets of specs for this inverter.

One spec has the MPPT range as 120V-350V, the other has it at 50-400V.

That may have been a typo, but it also ended up in the manual.

odd.

I see what you're saying kaju and that's going to be having an impact on the annual generation figures, but aren't the readings just posted taken on the DC side, so before the inverter losses?

In which case the inverter losses wouldn't explain the lower ampage readings shown in those posts for the smaller inverter.`

Though I did make a bit of a mistake as I thought the per panel voltage on the smaller string was lower than on the bigger string, but it isn't in the 3 minute readings once the MPPT has settled down.
 
Annoying when the manuals are different! :) Looks like the (MPPT Range starting from) 120V version was for an earlier model, dated July 09, and the 50V version is more current. Having said that I have known for there to be mistakes in spec sheets before now too. So it appears there were two versions of this model inverter.

All the indications are that the older version really was designed to go with higher voltage 5" celled panels - these were around 180-200w in size, with an average operating current of about 5A. Back at this time there weren't really any 250w panels (like your Solarworlds) - these use bigger 6" cells and have higher current, generally 8-9A, and lower voltages, perhaps 30v compared to 36-37V from an average 200w panel. This is confirmed on the older manual where it shows a max DC current of 6A, while the newer model is 10A.

Your inverter should be reporting the string current that it sees before it does anything with the power - if everything else is the same on both strings (dirt/shade/direction/tilt, etc) you should _overall_ be seeing very similar current from both strings - but they will still very often be different at times too! :)

If you have the older model, your inverter may well be losing some power as it may be clipping the panels' current a little - a good inverter's MPPT can try and juggle the voltage and current to some extent to minimise the effect on output, but not all can do this, and in any case, the 8+A at STC for Imp (operating current) that your panels are capable of may be a little high for that anyway, for this inverter. Never mind the fact that the old inverter's MPPT range starts at 120v and sometimes the four panel string's voltage will be bumping around at or below that level. :)

Panel current is related to insolation - how much sun is getting through to the panel - voltage stays comparatively stable throughout the day, but current can fluctuate much more dramatically with the light hitting the panels, even when you may not notice the difference visually much, if at all. Your four panels have been making close to 120V, which indicates that they are all functioning. Remember each panel you add adds voltage to the string, not current. You've _apparently_ been getting a bit less current on the 4 panel string and overall, it should have the same current as the other string if both have identical directions and tilt - the number of panels in a string doesn't affect the current. It may be you have something wrong with a few cells (I'd think this unlikely, but it is possible), or a panel may be in very slight partial shade (even along the edge of one panel, etc), or perhaps the 4 panel string simply needs a bit of a clean!

Different strings will have different current, even with the same panels - of course they should be closer than you have been seeing - but 20% difference on a momentary basis is not unheard of. You are apparently not getting this difference consistently - one of your figures showed that at one point the 4 panel string was making 50% more current than the bigger string, so you can see that current on separate strings really can bounce around a lot. I'd want to be looking at both strings current in the middle of the day on a clear day over several intervals, probably on a couple of different days, checking that both strings actually do have the same direction and tilt, are genuinely unshaded and clean.

Even so, I would still expect losses from the 1kW inverter given the 4 panel string is bumping along at the bottom of its MPPT range, and that the 4 panel string's nominal current is a little higher than the inverter was apparently designed for. But I'd suspect that the low string voltage of about 120v is in any case going to cause substantial losses as the inverter tries to convert it to higher voltage usable AC power. :)

Unfortunately, you have a couple of variables here that are going to make it hard to diagnose what is causing the lower generation from the 4 panel string. Yes, it's making less power than you expect, but whether that is due to a loss of current from the panels (I'm not entirely convinced) or a loss due to voltage derating (which I'd suspect has at least some part here), it's going to be hard to apportion these losses without measuring each of the 4 panels individually. Even if you did find something, I'd still expect voltage derating losses, so it's highly unlikely that any testing would be cost-effective.

You're pretty much stuck with what you have - getting a new inverter more suited to your panels current and with perhaps less voltage derating too, _might_ help a little - but given the cost vs generation gain, that too is unlikely to be cost-effective.
 
Kaju, Gavin
Thanks for that detailed explanation.
Visual inspection (binoculars) confirms no dirt, bird droppings etc on the 4 panel array
Today looks bright and clear so I will take readings throughout the day and post.
And I'll do the same on the next cloudy day (to get a more robust comparison).
But essentially, it looks like I am where I am and there is no sensible way to improve things.

On the bright side, it is only the 4 panel string that seems to be misbehaving and then not much
 

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