Part P training . It must be stopped

[Gary Soulsby]

As most of you are aware part p was introduced in 2005. This has lead to a huge surge in people becoming part p registered installers. This is not the issue although anyone who works on electrical installations should have "sufficient" knowledge and training as to minimise risk.

The approved appretiship does this as anyone wanting to become qualified has to obtain level 2&3 technical cert and level 3 NVQ as well as sit the AM2 test.

Currently company's are offering training to become an approved domestic installer in 5 DAYS!!
That isn't even enough time to get someone entirely used to useing the regs book never mind classified as "competent"

In the end of the day these people are taking the easy option, of which I understand but that should not come at the price of safety and the loss of work of approved electricians that have spent 3-5 years training.

Find attacked the link to a petition stop the training of these under qualified "electricians"

Petition: Scrap Part P, someone with 5 days experience is not safe to work on electrics - https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207481/sponsors/new?token=xUnMdAVdRq7xSzVHb68h

 

[Spoon]

Welcome to the forum Gary.

Are you against Part P, 5 day courses or both.

I think (personally) that Part P was initially a good idea. It was designed so stop non -competent people from doing certain electrical work round the house.
Unfortunately it has now turned into a money making scheme, like quite a lot of things, and these schemes just care about money and not safety.

 

[Midwest]

I think you thread & petition could be construed as misleading.

A Google search of 'Part P Training' gives various training packages related to that, but predominately C&G 2393-10, varying from 1-5 days. This C&G course is meant to give a familiarisation to Part P Building regs, and how an electrical installation fits in with and affects other building regs. Non of these training establishments, the ones I looked at, suggest this course will train you as a competent electrician.

I also looked at your petition. I'm not sure how these things work, but other than you link, it doesn't state what you agreeing or signing, other than 'Gary Steven Soulsby’s petition'.

I'm somewhat against short training packages in general, although there are several members of this forum, that have been required for various reasons to go down this road. From what they have contributed in threads & posts, I can't dispute their competency.

Perhaps you should reconsider your wording, and be more specific, than just referring to Part P training. Just my opinion.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Apologies I should have been a little more specific. The link is to the petition and it explains about the training of "domestic Installer" it for some reason will not show the details until it has 5 people backing. that's my bad I did not know there link would do that.

Domestic Installer status is what I was referring to. Part P as a whole is important but the training company's that are offering these courses are misleading people.

It has reached a point where people looking to have work done are asking if you are Part P registered like that's the equivalent of Gas Safe.

With regards to short courses, I am against them. to say that someone is competent after even 12-18 weeks of training is wrong. what this is resulting in is people being mislead when requesting work done in there house. Disadvantaging electricians that have completed a recognized apprentiship.

Domestic installer is not an Electrician

 

[Spoon]

Domestic installer is not an Electrician

According to the Oxford dictionary an electrician is "A person who installs and maintains electrical equipment"... Therefore a Domestic Installer is an electrician.

I can't see anyone wanting to sign a petition when there is no explanation against it. You must be able to change this....

There are quite a few people in this forum who have done short courses. When you talk to these people most know their limitations and are not muppets.... They do not do work that is way above them.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

According to the Oxford dictionary an electrician is "A person who installs and maintains electrical equipment"... Therefore a Domestic Installer is an electrician.

I can't see anyone wanting to sign a petition when there is no explanation against it. You must be able to change this....

There are quite a few people in this forum who have done short courses. When you talk to these people most know their limitations and are not muppets.... They do not do work that is way above them.

the Oxford dictionary defines pilot as- a person who operates the controls of an aircraft, especially as a job.
so under that reasoning if I run in the cock pit and press a button (without knowing what I am doing) I am now a pilot?

It is not enough to say that MOST of them know there limitations, deciding that you think you know how it works wont save the family when the house burns down.

If your taking shortcuts to your training then your more likely to take shortcuts on your job.

The Very minimum should be two years of college so that you understand electrical science and theory . Someone thinking they know what there doing should be the difference between life or death.

 

[Spoon]

the Oxford dictionary defines pilot as- a person who operates the controls of an aircraft, especially as a job.
so under that reasoning if I run in the cock pit and press a button (without knowing what I am doing) I am now a pilot?

Nicely twisted there mate..

It is not enough to say that MOST of them know there limitations, deciding that you think you know how it works wont save the family when the house burns down.

Some 'electricians' with 5 years of collage don't know their limitations... (See how I twisted that.. )

If your taking shortcuts to your training then your more likely to take shortcuts on your job.

The Very minimum should be two years of college so that you understand electrical science and theory . Someone thinking they know what there doing should be the difference between life or death.

Some people don't have the option of going to collage... Doesn't mean they will do a rubbish job.

How about doing a proper job with the petition form, so people know what they are signing or agreeing to.

 

[FatAlan]

I believe the issue is the false representations made by a number of training providers who in a way are being aided and abetted by the comp person schemes. Even the inspection and testing qualifications are meaningless unless you get hands on experience on someone else’s installation supervised by someone who’s done it before. If the government was serious about getting more trained Electricians they would be providing more incentives to companies in respect of apprenticeships .... not that I know what the current situation is. Certainly from what I’ve experienced, C&G do not police well enough those teaching their exams and like all exam systems since the advent of the computer, too much reliance is placed on computer multi-guess exams rather than written or witnessed practical excerises.

 

[kenny7askew]

"It has reached a point where people looking to have work done are asking if you are Part P registered like that's the equivalent of Gas Safe "

No one as ever asked me

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Some 'electricians' with 5 years of collage don't know their limitations... (See how I twisted that.. )

This may be the case but with the knowledge of Electrical science and theory they will at least know how to make it safe. I'm guessing by your reply you are a DI, I don't have anything against the people I just think it is unsafe to let you decide what you deem yourself competent to work on.

 

[Squid]

What is the difference between a DI a Electrical Trainee a Part P and fully apprenticed Sparks, out of curiosity?

 

[Spoon]

This may be the case but with the knowledge of Electrical science and theory they will at least know how to make it safe. I'm guessing by your reply you are a DI, I don't have anything against the people I just think it is unsafe to let you decide what you deem yourself competent to work on.

You make it sound like a DI is a bad thing... I'm not saying what my job title is... It could be DI... The people who know me know what I do.
I like to think I'm a bit more broad minded and not paint everyone with the same brush, mate.

 

[Pete999]

According to the Oxford dictionary an electrician is "A person who installs and maintains electrical equipment"... Therefore a Domestic Installer is an electrician.

I can't see anyone wanting to sign a petition when there is no explanation against it. You must be able to change this....

There are quite a few people in this forum who have done short courses. When you talk to these people most know their limitations and are not muppets.... They do not do work that is way above them.

According to the Oxford dictionary an electrician is "A person who installs and maintains electrical equipment"... Therefore a Domestic Installer is an electrician.

I can't see anyone wanting to sign a petition when there is no explanation against it. You must be able to change this....

There are quite a few people in this forum who have done short courses. When you talk to these people most know their limitations and are not muppets.... They do not do work that is way above them.

I have to respectfully disagree with your analogy, or the Oxford Dictionary's, to be correct, that anyone who operates and maintains, and installs electrical equipment is an Electrician, this would make Meter fitters, kitchen installers, lamp changers ( yes they are still employed to do just that) would be classed as Electricians wouldn't it?
I personally think that what the OP was getting at, and I could be wrong, but that's my takes, is that, the "ubiquitous Part P qualification" is a course thought up by the Cash hungry Training providers, to con the ill informed that that qualification will make them Electricians, or Domestic installers, they are different animals, otherwise there wouldn't be Domestic Installers.
Unfortunately the General Public have been lulled into a false sense of security asking the ever ready question, "are you Part P qualified" When we all should know Part P is a building regulation. I will add as a caveat that not all short course qualifying people are, or should not be classed as incompetent, or bad Tradespeople just because they have chosen, or maybe circumstances have forced them to take that route to become qualified, not at all, there are some very competent people about, some are members of this Forum, there are those thave taken the Part P and PA Testing qualifications and are operating as Electricians, you know that as well as I do, I have a passion for this industry, and to see it decline in this way saddens me, I wish the OP good luck with his Petition and I hope someone in authority takes notice, it will be about time if they do, although looking at the way the Government has reacted to the accident that cause this clamor for change, I won't hold my breath.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

You make it sound like a DI is a bad thing... I'm not saying what my job title is... It could be DI... The people who know me know what I do.
I like to think I'm a bit more broad minded and not paint everyone with the same brush, mate.

I wasn't asking you to answer I was merely making an observation as you seem to be very defensive. I am aware that not all DI's work unsafely but it should not be open to interpretation. The person ordering the Work should be aware of the Difference between Approved Electrician and Domestic installer. I am well aware that not all people can afford to take apprentice routes due to the disgustingly bad pay they offer for 3 years.

In the end of the day we work in a field that is incredibly dangerous and there should be tighter restrictions on training as they have with the Gas industry.

Domestic installers scope is a very grey area, iv heard of them working in Pubs that I would classify as Commercial just because there is a bedroom on the top floor. Rented accommodation is another example where technically that is being used as commercial use.

Don't take it personally but I think there should be separate regulatory bodies for Approved electricians and DI's as electrical design and installation should be done by someone who knows the theory. I am not saying everyone that is DI should loose there ability to do there job , they should have the option to complete theory and be assessed on it then they could get status of Approved after so many years.

 

[Spoon]

Hi @Pete999 . The Oxford dictionary thing was cause of the OP saying "Domestic installer is not an Electrician". My personal opinion is that a DI is an electrician.
As I said before, there are some who are DI's on this forum. Most are really nice people who know their limitations.
Yes the industry has declined. It's been declining for decades.
What we need need to stop is the 'Cash hungry Training providers' but I can't see that happening. Truthful proper training is what is needed.