W

wstevew

One of those days today where the clouds go and you see a peak, But highest I have seen on mine 3.840kWp east/west system SB4000TL

20120701_1313561.jpg
 
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From a production point of view it always has, just luck it stayed on the roof until they refitted :-)

However all that power down an 2.5mm T&E and SMA say it should be 6mm

PS. Thanks for your advise about the refitting.
 
Ah maybe that was why the inverter shut down before, just keep an eye on the AC voltage at the inverter.
 
fwiw, I've just downloaded the data from a 4000Tl we installed last September, which we had bonded to the MET (skylights right next to it) and it has irregular 601 DC grid feed in notices mostly early morning and evening as well, so I really don't see that the bonding makes any difference to it.
 
No. the top technical man from the installation company is supposed to be making a visit this week to take a look at the system.

I did email SMA again last week and set out how the system is wired etc. Thats when they pointed out the 2.5mm is not enough.

1) They first suggested the event message could be fixed by a firmware update. I said its on the latest firmware already.

They said array bonding is a decision to be made by an installer as every installation is different. Some bond every installation and others do not. (this contradicts their first response a while back).


Their response about the 6mm wire was:-

If 2.5mm cable is used anywhere on the ac side of a SB4000TL the inverter could disconnect frequently when approaching full power. Our inverters constantly measure the resistance of the AC circuit, an if this goes above 1ohm they will stop feeding in. Resistance of a cable increases incrementally in line with the power going through it.

2.5mm cable is allowed by UK regulations on domestic circuits that can operate above 4kw but assumptions are made that this is not a constant load (i.e. appliances such as washing machines switch on and off during their cycles).

A 4kw PV system during a bright day can feed in constant 4kw for up to 6 hours which can put undue strain on a cable if it too small. Hence the 1 Ohm safety limit.
 
fwiw, I've just downloaded the data from a 4000Tl we installed last September, which we had bonded to the MET (skylights right next to it) and it has irregular 601 DC grid feed in notices mostly early morning and evening as well, so I really don't see that the bonding makes any difference to it.

I couldn't see how it would fix it, but originally SMA said it would. then firmware, and now they say the cable may fix it and that intermittent faults are a process of trial and error. Clutching at straws comes to mind
 
My installers technical man asked to come and look at the system due to the 601 errors.

He checked the inverter was set up right. I had already said it was but he wanted to see for himself which is fair enough.

He is saying he sees no reason whatsoever why 2.5mm twin and earth would be a problem and changing it will just inconvenience me. He said he would do a bit more investigation.

This may be true but I showed him the email from SMA and said if you don't do what they say you wont get any further with their support if they are saying it could be the issue as it is not to their recommended standard.

I would be grateful as always for your feedback.
 
Dansk was right, the technical man needs to get more technical, you need a minimum of 4mm but most would use 6mm cable for this length.
Looks like you may have more disruption, get them to change it.
 
Thanks Earthstore & Dansk.

He said all their systems they have used 2.5mm and some they have had SMA out to replace inverters and they hadn't made any comments about the cable.
 
Just followed along the cable run and I would say 13m from isolator to Gen meter.

Is there an online calculator for this?
 
If I can get technical, then why cant the technical man


[TABLE="class: data, width: 795"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]Allowable Voltage Drop[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]1 %[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]Run Length[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]14 m[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]Current Demand[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]16 A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]System Voltage[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]240 V[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]Voltage Drop[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]10.71 mV/A.m[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]Recommended Cable Size[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCDCDC"]6 mm[SUP]2[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
As always you guys are spot on. A quick look through the manual shows up a Min AC cable size of 6mm up to 23m distance

Mounting instructions state "Do not mount the Sunny Boy on flammable construction materials". Does this mean a fire retardant board? Is it like plywood with plasterboard or something?

Also my RCCB is 30ma

SMAGridConnection.jpg


SMAMountingInstructions.jpg
 

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You're already more clued up than their 'technical' expert.

They may have used 2.5mm on all of their other jobs - this doesn't make it right. It just means that they have done all of their other jobs incorrectly also.
 
Masterboard - we use it all the time - Masterboard

Any GOOD builders merchant will stock it or similar, it's not cheap, (£120 / sheet) though one sheet of 8 x 4 will do 4 jobs easily. (4 x 2 per inverter..)

It's stronger than pasterboard, tends to be water resistant also, doesn't have the paper finish.
 
While they are refitting your inverter, get them to clip all the cables as they really should not be hanging from the switches just relying on the terminal connection.

A few clips only cost pennies, mind you they can not have much profit left in your job, but they should have got it right the first time.
I know you have been persistent but they do keep coming back so they are due a little credit.
 
Hopefully they will continue to do the right thing and learn from their errors. But they are big enough to know better.
 
I also have a 3.75kw system using an sma 4000tl. It has a 15m ac run using 2.5mm swa. I am currently in discussion with the installer to have it changed to the correct 6mm as stated in sma guidance. He says the 2.5mm cable is within spec according to the BS, but does that not also state that the system must be installed iaw manufacturer guidance /instructions. If it does is it possible to post the reference to this. Sunny design and the draka cable calculator both say the cable is undersized for a 1% drop.
 
Quick update from the post above. I have just watched the grid voltage at the inverter change significantly. It is a day with bright sunny intervals. Voltage at 3.9kw was 247v dropping to 240v when generating only 400w. This must be an indication of the inverter overcoming the volt drop in the cable at higher currents. Does anyone have any views on this?
 
SMA say there are 2 reasons for needing the 6mm2 cable instead of the 2.5mm2 as per 17th edition.

1 - Volt drop needs to be limited to 1% along the cable to avoid the inverter having to kick out at too high a voltage relative to the grid voltage to avoid it tripping out the G83 over voltage settings too often.

2 - The 17th edition cable sizings are based on the maximum load only being used for relatively short periods of time, whereas a 4kW PV system could be kicking out 4kW continuously for 5-6 hours on end, so the cable would be more prone to overheating.


it's sheer incompetence IMO to be using 2.5mm cable when both the manufacturers written instructions and their design tool state that this isn't acceptable, though I know a lot of companies seem to have been doing it.

this is an issue that will become more and more problematic the more other systems get installed on the same phase from the same transformer, as in peak sunlight levels they will push up the local grid voltage, and it will be the inverters on the cable run with the highest resistance that will end up dropping out first. From your figures, it looks as if you're will cut out when the incoming voltage is around 246, which is utterly ridiculous given that the 10 minute cut out voltage SMA use is 253V.

get them back.
 
Exactly. As my system is if the grid voltage starts to go a bit higher then I suspect the inverter will start to cut out.
 

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