Peoples thoughts

[a1guvner]

Just wanted to see peoples thoughts on the UK having a licence system with different classes for sparks, would it be a tool for making unlicenced work easier for the idiots or could it raise standards and make it easier for customers to understand like the Electrical Trainee not being a very high class grade

 

[Octopus]

Waste of time, like Part P

No one to enforce it, bodies with no teeth - just taking the money.

 

[Mr.Si]

The JIB have a grading system already don't they? Thing is, it's not used properly and Part P got more "umph" as it was government "founded".

Shame.

 

[oldtimer]

Just wanted to see peoples thoughts on the UK having a licence system with different classes for sparks, would it be a tool for making unlicenced work easier for the idiots or could it raise standards and make it easier for customers to understand like the Electrical Trainee not being a very high class grade

You say licenced but europe already has this and before any Euro sceptics start shouting little Britian this is the very thing how we are being shafted by our own government in Germany and France my understanding is if you are caught useing a no licenced trader I did a job for a couple who just came back from Germany where it is frowned upon if you get a cash job and if you do the authorities fine the customer and also gets them to pay for the tax loss so we are never going to have a workable system because there are too many fingers in the pie as far as I am concerned all electrician should be graded and registered with the JIB or in my case the SJIB and with that yep keep the 2 grades electrician and approved electrician and at a push have a Domestic and Commercial Industrial grades but at all costs keep the registration companies out of this also if you are self employed then you should be able to register your business with the JIB and they should hold a copy of your PL and PI insurance because as the law stands if you do a bad job then your customer can persue or in other word simplify the whole thing because right now the system is protecting the £30 EICR companies and not protecting the very people that is their life blood.

Also if there is any Euro sceptics 22 years ago the ECC brought into power the European Employment Act all Britsh governments have opted out of this but now we are having top take these laws on board by stealth so we are now only getting some of the protection we should have got 22 years ago so when it comes to Licence electricians maybe we should look at haow they do it or we can do what we always do and just let it roll Aye I can hear the registration companies screaming from here

 

[a1guvner]

Definately, most of the schemes in place are only there to line there own pockets, but wouldnt it be nice to have a system to stop the cowboys and DIYers

x qualifcations = different levels of licence suited to different levels of work,

 

[telectrix]

soon as the niceic and the other scams work out how they can make oodles of money out of a licensing scheme, you can guarantee they'll instigate one.

 

[oldtimer]

soon as the niceic and the other scams work out how they can make oodles of money out of a licensing scheme, you can guarantee they'll instigate one.

Yep but my idea would take them out the loop so they could stick to training and even work as an independant investigator when there is a dispute

 

[a1guvner]

Yep but my idea would take them out the loop so they could stick to training and even work as an independant investigator when there is a dispute

Yes, remember when Corgi first came out and people actually started demanding Corgi engineers, there must be a way of stepping up again from that?

Obviously there must of still been lots of idiots about but somethings got to happen

 

[imago]

We don't need another scheme, or a new system. What we need is for those with the power (the Government) to focus on the issues across the construction industry, grow a spine, and enforce the regulations that are already in place.

There are IMHO only two 'grades' of tradesmen in any field, those that act professionally and complete work to a high standard, and those which don't. All the qualifications, length of time in the trade, memberships, and fancy trousers merely hint at the type of individual. They don't prove anything.

Equal attention should be paid to, and enforcement applied to, the end users. Any customer (private, commercial, or industrial) who either dodges a standard of work, or tries to get 'matey from the pub', should be held equally liable for the penalties with the cowboy doing it. Contracts can be very descriptive, and a standard should be used. If a builder fly tips waste from a job the householder can and does get prosecuted if it's traced. This level of attention should be paid to the work done too.

 

[Specialist]

Guys: Does anyone honestly believe that a Licence is going to stop under the counter work ? I honestly don't think a licence system is going to work, for 1) you can Guarantee it would just end up causing the poor sparky some more money that he / she can ill afford to pay & 2) We're in a recession & the only way a lot of people can afford to have repairs done is to have it done under the Counter. It's not right but that's the way it is, any of you want to stand in front of Joe public & tell them that from now on they can't have a faulty light repaired unless they can afford a Licensed Electrician ?. Before you worry about the rest of us getting Licenced, is'nt it time we tried to find a way of stopping these Schemes putting totally incompetent into the Trade ?. Yes I know it's never going to happen, the Govrnment make too much out of it. We don't need a licence, we need the Government to pull their fingers out of their rear ends & make what we already have work.

Just a thought: Are'nt Americans using a Licencing scheme ? Does'nt stop the Cowboys or DIY'ers though.

 

[a1guvner]

The people ordering the substandard work should be more accountable but in the real world how would it be policed, would take a real shake up

 

[Engineer54]

Reading most of these posts, i can't believe how short sighted most of you are. It's as if your desperate to remain the pawns and cash cows of these scam providers. Can't any of you see, if you are a National Registered Qualified Electrician, the scam providers will effectively have no role to play as far as part Pee or any other fee charging role!!

You need to forget what DIY'ers do in there own homes, it's got nothing to do with you, your no going to stop it, no-matter what rules and reg's are in place. What you need to concentrate on, is the incompetent part trained electricians that are trading and performing much of the sub-standard installations in peoples homes. Not to mention the buckshee PIRs and other so-called official report paperwork.

Yes a lot needs to get sorted out, especially the grading side of things, and the teeth that such a registration authority would require. But to allow these scam providers to carry on the way they are, with no intention whatsoever of changing things, is just pure madness!! Let them all go back to what they were doing before Part Pee, when they were not effectively reducing or killing off our industry....

As for the JIB, well they have never been very effective have they, no-one can trust there grading system that seems to change by the day. Most of it now run by kids and old women that haven't a clue about some of the C&G's they are dealing with, from times when C&G meant something and were real courses and had real examination grades....

Just remember, at the moment your all being taken for a right royal ride, your industry is going to the dogs, your status as electricians is being diminished by deskilling at an alarming rate!! And here you are, supporting the very organisations that are or have been responsible!! WAKE UP, .... and start seeing the light!!

 

[a1guvner]

Well said

 

[m top]

Been looking on here a while i am not an electrician but a building contractor with 25 years experience,i have signed up to one of these fast track courses to gain electrical experience with a view to be able to install solar panels to new build jobs for myself in the future.
i do have a basic understanding of basic electrical circuits before i started this course domestic side but am wondering why so many of you think these courses
are so bad,i appreciate the fact that you cant know everthing when doing these courses,but i do find some peoples comments contradictory in regards to experience knowledge levels as you are training to be a domestic installer not an industrial or electrical engineer,domestic electrics are not that difficult and anyone with basic construction background should find enough grounding from these courses to be able to install domestic electrics.
I hope i have not offended any tradesmen with my views and i am not quiet sure if this is the right post to post my comments,however i would be pleased to hear your views thankyou.

 

[Engineer54]

And what would you say then to an office worker, that has never picked up a hammer in his life were to suddenly think he can become a domestic builder such as yourself??

What would your view on that be??

 

[Engineer54]

Been looking on here a while i am not an electrician but a building contractor with 25 years experience,i have signed up to one of these fast track courses to gain electrical experience with a view to be able to install solar panels to new build jobs for myself in the future.
i do have a basic understanding of basic electrical circuits before i started this course domestic side but am wondering why so many of you think these courses
are so bad,i appreciate the fact that you cant know everthing when doing these courses,but i do find some peoples comments contradictory in regards to experience knowledge levels as you are training to be a domestic installer not an industrial or electrical engineer,domestic electrics are not that difficult and anyone with basic construction background should find enough grounding from these courses to be able to install domestic electrics.
I hope i have not offended any tradesmen with my views and i am not quiet sure if this is the right post to post my comments,however i would be pleased to hear your views thankyou.

This is another point, why do you think you can become an electrician in 5 weeks because of your building trade experience?? This is yet another area that needs putting a stop too, like these kitchen fitters and plumbers, that suddenly think they can do there own electrical work!! Funny how everyone thinks the electrical game is a doddle!! It's only a doodle at the very best of times, but as soon as you hit any form of problem, you'll soon find out it's far from a doddle!! Then you'll either cover up the problem or be running around trying to get a REAL electrician to tell you what to do or sort it for you!!

This has been a real problem for the electrical industry as far as i can see, with these dammed Scam Providers, creating totally meaningless ''defined scope'' categories for the sole purpose of bringing in yet more money at the expense of the very people they are supposedly be serving/protecting. It all needs to stop, and stop NOW!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

This is another point, why do you think you can become an electrician in 5 weeks because of your building trade experience?? This is yet another area that needs putting a stop too, like these kitchen fitters and plumbers, that suddenly think they can do there own electrical work!! Funny how everyone thinks the electrical game is a doddle!! It's only a doodle at the very best of times, but as soon as you hit any form of problem, you'll soon find out it's far from a doddle!! Then you'll either cover up the problem or be running around trying to get a REAL electrician to tell you what to do or sort it for you!!

This has been a real problem for the electrical industry as far as i can see, with these dammed Scam Providers, creating totally meaningless ''defined scope'' categories for the sole purpose of bringing in yet more money at the expense of the very people they are supposedly be serving/protecting. It all needs to stop, and stop NOW!!

I agree that a domestic installation isn't exactly rocket science but E54 is right in that when faced with anything that deviates from the norm, some of these guys are goosed.

But they have their own dedicated thread here, it's called 'Stupid question of the week' and it grows at an alarming rate.....

 

[oldtimer]

This is another point, why do you think you can become an electrician in 5 weeks because of your building trade experience?? This is yet another area that needs putting a stop too, like these kitchen fitters and plumbers, that suddenly think they can do there own electrical work!! Funny how everyone thinks the electrical game is a doddle!! It's only a doodle at the very best of times, but as soon as you hit any form of problem, you'll soon find out it's far from a doddle!! Then you'll either cover up the problem or be running around trying to get a REAL electrician to tell you what to do or sort it for you!!

This has been a real problem for the electrical industry as far as i can see, with these dammed Scam Providers, creating totally meaningless ''defined scope'' categories for the sole purpose of bringing in yet more money at the expense of the very people they are supposedly be serving/protecting. It all needs to stop, and stop NOW!!

Totaly agree how would a plumber feel if we said dont bother I am going to take a 1 week course and I will do the plumbing just as I already do in my house the other thing that a lot of people are missing is a customer asked can you do plumbing as well I said yes I do all of my own except for gas but I cannot do a job for you SO HERE IS THE KEY PART SO SIT UP AND NOTE so the customer says why not and I say because my PL insurance only covers me for electrics and not plumbing so the next time one of those smart ar$£ joiners or plumbers say its a doddle just reply well hope you are insured to do it because if there is a claim you will have to pay it out of your own pocket because you are not insured good pont said the customer who 3 months later called to say he was getting his kitchen done and would I do the electrics I had to decline because I dont do rewires or kitchens Rewires because I cannot be ar$£d and I am too old and Kitchens because I dont trust joiners ie be thee on Monday morning at 9 and he turns up on Wednesday morning and by the way the kitchen guys ie plumber and joiner told the customer we can do the electrics he said fine I take it one of you have insurance cover for this he told me their faces were a picture when they realised they were not.

PS Engineer 54 the reason I mentioned the JIB is the SJIB (cannot speak for JIB) is appears to be better organised plus as I said too many cooks with the registration companies who would only b*&^%$r it up and we need a central registration agency

This has been a real problem for the electrical industry as far as i can see, with these dammed Scam Providers, creating totally meaningless ''defined scope'' categories for the sole purpose of bringing in yet more money at the expense of the very people they are supposedly be serving/protecting. It all needs to stop, and stop NOW!![/QUOTE]

 

[needasparks]

I know this is a spin from the de-skilling thread but it does seem to be a theme now and totally agree with the comments but as said we are stuck with it now.
We all knew before the law changed that there were alot of DIY and bodges from builders doing their own wiring going on and it will always continue, at least before part P was introduced it was black or white as in either you were a sparks or not but now we have so many shades of grey areas its no suprize the everyday customer has no idea what or who to get in to carry out their work.
I understand the reasons for a licence type thing but again we know how the training for said item will go.
My only guess is it would work if a correct duration apprentiship was served as being part of the process and this being the mandatory part, You can tell the lack of knowledge from the basic questions asked on this forum from people doing said crash courses calling themselves an electrician. I did used to laugh at the questions asked, Like '' What cable to use on a cooker'' from someone who in another post has done a 2391.
Agree something has to give soon as insurance companies are going to dictate it when in a couple of years the claims come rolling in.

 

[m top]

i appreciate all the comments and nothing equates to experience,however
these courses teach you to work to regs and most importantly work safely,if i for one looked at a job and thought it was beyond me i would be honest and offer it to someone with more experience.
The courses afore mentioned teach you how to install a domestic curcuit New Build so in my mind should be able to install it after completeing the course if you know your way around general construction,i would freely admit they offer little more so appreciate your comments i do believe though it seems electricians on this forum see all the fast track course providers as people with no idea,

you do a course to learn and not everyone on these courses are numptys!!

 

[imago]

you do a course to learn and not everyone on these courses are numptys!!

Don't let it wind you up. It's just a forum, and people have opinion's.

The thing with experience is it counts for nothing unless you learn something along the way. A mate of mine raced bikes for 25 years, on pretty much every track in the UK. He's still rubbish at it after all that time.

There are electricians (and plumbers, builders, roofers etc etc) who are time served and have been at it for 30 years who I wouldn't let change a plug in my house. Likewise there are newly qualified tradesmen who do a cracking job.

It's not fair to lump everyone into the same category. For example, not everyone over 50 is a master craftsman who has become an embittered old giffer.

 

[a1guvner]

People in the know are aware of the differences regarding qualifications and lengths of courses, but does joe public in the majority believe an electrician is an electrician

 

[imago]

No, absolutely not. I totally agree that the system is poorly conceived, and it's enforcement is even worse.

I just don't think it's right to lump everyone who tries to better themselves, or has the guts to put their money where there mouth is a make a change, into a single category of incompetant dangerous fools.

The irony in some posts on here is so thick you could cut it with a knife sometimes. "our trade is going to the dogs." "I've had enough of this" etc etc etc. Yet the posters do nothing about it. Someone else says the same in a different trade/profession/job, and when they do get off their backsides and do something about it they face a barrage of criticism. I don't think it's fair as there will be a no higher proportion who are useless, or fools, than in the 'established' practitioners or any other part of the population. It's worth remembering that someone who has been an electrician for 25 years could well be a 3 month wonder from the Thatcher era, a retrained miner say. So are all 20 - 25 year experienced electricians 3 month wonders who's qualifications aren't worth spit?

 

[needasparks]

I for one have no such problem with people bettering themselves or changing direction in work whatsoever, afterall you only live once and this life is no trial run and have much respect for them giving it a go.
What i do not understand is the way people want to throw money at a two week course expecting it to give the same level of understanding as someone who has spent a minimum of three to five years working on the tools and at college like most trades used to.
unfortunately the sparks out there have no power to change the way people get their bits of paper but i do like to educate the public when i can on the pitfalls of trusting a part P only sparks.

 

[highspark]

There is no better funding/money raiser than the PART P entry guidlines of the 17th Edition which any monkey can pass!

 

[vernam616]

Until something happens personally to a politician involving electricity, wether it be a death/injury etc...

Nothing will be done

 

[needasparks]

Until something happens personally to a politician involving electricity, wether it be a death/injury etc...

Nothing will be done

Was that not how this circus started..........

 

[vernam616]

Was that not how this circus started..........

I think you could be right..............

*awaits some bright spark to post a news link to the original story

 

[needasparks]

As you asked nicely

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-electrocuted-in-botched-fitted-kitchen.html

 

[vernam616]

As you asked nicely

MP's daughter electrocuted in botched fitted kitchen - Telegraph

I dont think it was a result of that to be honest, as it was dated October 2004, part p was introduced in january 2005, im pretty sure it took more than 3 months to plan for it

 

[needasparks]

I believe that was used in the final decision as it was bumped around for years.
was actually 31st of July.

Edit

 

[Des 56]

Scams
I am very confident that very few if any applicants have ever been refused entry to any of the scams

Part p has had the complete opposite result of what the idiots who brought it in intended
Is there anybody on this forum who has first hand knowledge of any failed applicant I wonder,maybe thats why the short courses are so lucrative to the training providers and the scams

I dont expect a rush of replies

 

[oldtimer]

Just to add to my previous mail everytime people ask me do you do kitchens I always say no and here is a bit of free advice always ask the people doing the kitchen if they are insured to do electrics this does 2 things it makes the customer aware of what is going on but it also puts doubt in the minds of the 2 kitchen joes ie joiner and plumber as I said if you get a chance lob that spanner in and through time it will become it will spread like a virus.

PS in America years ago insurance companies were getting a lot of fire claims so when the battery smoke detector came on the market they said to the owner fit and maintain a couple of these in your home and we will take 10% off the premium if you dont then we will add 10% yep a no brainer but overnight deaths and severe fire damage figures crashed so much so the insurance companies profits went up and thats where we are having to go it will be the insurance companies who will dictate policy not some stupid registration companies who are found to be lacking

 

[hermetic]

I began my training in 1967, it all worked perfectly well then, there was no need for anything more than the IEE regs, and proper training, the cowboys got sacked before they completed their time. Electrical accidents in the home have been falling since 1962 (ROSPA/DTI figures) so the tale that "These regulations are introduced to stem the rising tide of electrical accidents in the home" (Part P) was a load of b*ll*x. Most domestic electrical accidents consern attached appliances, and not the installation itself anyway. The only difference is that the real Electricians now have a load of middle management in the registration industry to support as well as themselves and their families. All we actually need is proper training at technical college, a five year apprenticeship, no fast track, and the IEE regs. Nothing more is neccasary.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

We don't need another scheme, or a new system. What we need is for those with the power (the Government) to focus on the issues across the construction industry, grow a spine, and enforce the regulations that are already in place.

There are IMHO only two 'grades' of tradesmen in any field, those that act professionally and complete work to a high standard, and those which don't. All the qualifications, length of time in the trade, memberships, and fancy trousers merely hint at the type of individual. They don't prove anything.

Equal attention should be paid to, and enforcement applied to, the end users. Any customer (private, commercial, or industrial) who either dodges a standard of work, or tries to get 'matey from the pub', should be held equally liable for the penalties with the cowboy doing it. Contracts can be very descriptive, and a standard should be used. If a builder fly tips waste from a job the householder can and does get prosecuted if it's traced. This level of attention should be paid to the work done too.

the problem here though is what you can end up with is some sort of "electrical police"...going round issueing "tickets"... take a look at our society today...loads of "departments".....,"think tanks" with the ear of government and all manner of departments.....all with their own little "police force"....issueing dictat to all who have to listen.....fragmented, bitter, awful.....

 

[Kakys2]

Part p imho has had a detrimental effect on the electrical industry. I was recently called to a new instalation that had all the relevant certificates but was dangerous, and I couldn't touch it because I'm not Part P registered and it was a kitchen circuit, I am a time served electrician in the industry for 23 years I have done 15th and 16th edition regs and inspection & testing, I haven't done the 17th yet, but I've got the amendments and plan to go on the amendments course (also I have an HNC in Electrical Engineering). I just had to advise the person to call the kitchen company back and rectify the problems I had highlighted. In my opinion it wasn't an electrician who had wired it up, but they were Part P registered how can this system be better then what was in place before. I think that if I had photographed it and rectified the problems then perhaps in a court of law I probably would of been ok, but I wouldn't want to risk it.

 

[needasparks]

Head, nail, hit.

 

[Kakys2]

When I finished my apprenticeship I had to pass a trade test to get my indentures (I don't know if this was the norm or not), but then they brought in NVQ's which seemed like a good scheme but the trade test was not so strict after that, which is not good or bad, it's just a statement (as to this day I remember how much pressure I felt under leading up to my trade test), but I have felt that the term electrician has changed from a qaulified time served tradesman proud of his accomplishment's to somebody who just want's to make a quick buck.
In my opinion the Part P courses are like driving lessons they don't teach you how to drive they teach you how to pass the test.

I don't know what the answer is but the system in place now is not working maybe a licence system would work maybe not.

 

[Guest123]

The implementation of any type of new scheme, by the time everyman and his political dog from Aberdeen to Brussels, has had their 10p worth will render it as meaningful and useful as a chocolate teapot.

It will be the same as every other licensing scheme covering any area, so heavily interfered with by all & sundry that it will be un-implementable and wholly unrespected by everyone except the mugs that sign up on the dotted line.

The electrical industry as we know it is dying, why anyone would want to get involved in it at this moment in time is beyond me. If I knew 15 years ago what I do now, I would never have gotten involved in it as it saddens me each & every to see they way my beloved trade is decaying!!!

 

[Octopus]

Just yesterday I was undertaking a bit of a major kitchen rewiring exercise, and tracking down how the existing socket circuit went was my priority before making any changes.

In the end I was able to track the ring as the ceiling was down and on each side at one end of the kitchen was a spur. One spur went to a single socket. The other side of the room was a very different story - spur, to spur, to spur and then the most recent job a few weeks back by the Gas Safe man, from the last spur, 2 spurs more spurs!!

I wonder sometimes why we bother trying to do right, but each time I remember that I like doing it the correct way for my clients safety and my own piece of mind. Part P or no Part P I'd still work to the regs.