Petition: Make working with electricity a criminal offence unless qualified

[Leesparkykent]

Hell would freeze over before I even considered employing a short course electrician...

 

[andyb]

Or make what's required to be an approved electrician the minimum standard...

How do you get to approved electrician without working as an electrician?

 

[sean_ork]

And your point is what,

My point is clear, and you've made it for me - you clearly deem yourself to be competent to carry out tasks which you hold no formal qualifications in, that's fair enough.


Nigel Gresham also considered himself competent - I expect there have been lots of damage, injury and deaths due to folks assuming their own competence - the premise of the petition is flawed and simply not enforceable.

 

[Leesparkykent]

How do you get to approved electrician without working as an electrician?

For new entrants an apprenticeship or as a mate whilst doing an evening course. Part 2, part 3, nvq3, 2394 and2395 with the experience that goes along with it. Either way should take a minimum of 3 years whilst gaining practical experience working along side approved electricians. Not 6weeks in a classroom.

 

[snowhead]

Sounds like that there are electricians here who feel threatened about others joining the industry.

Makes no difference to me personally.

1. I've never been employed in Domestics.
2. I've been employed for nearly 50 years, so I'll be out of it shortly.

But why would someone with your apparent previous capabilities want to train to do Domestic installs?

People typically take apprenticeships because they either lack the ability to go to University, lack the experience or the competency to teach themselves.

Why would you assume even if people had the ability to go to Uni that that would be their first choice.

If I have learned anything about the field so far is that it is concerned with safety more than anything else. So long as you choose the correct wiring, consider the environmental effects (like grouping), consider location, use the right conduits there is NO reason why someone like myself cannot become an electrician.

You're in for a massive wake up call when you get out into the real world.

A course like this is unsuitable for someone who has never looked at electricity and I agree that someone who has no previous knowledge should be able to go straight into industry. But for someone like me, this course is a great way to get into it considering the fact that I am already a proven engineer. .

You may well be more capable of learning than some, but the problem is the current system doesn't test for previous suitable knowledge and experience.
It allows someone who may have been a shelf stacker ( even by choice as opposed to going to Uni) to work unsupported within a matter of weeks

If there are people here who genuinely think that someone like me is incapable because of this course (despite the fact that I have previous experience with electricity and electronics), then it just goes to show how little they know.

Quite the reverse, YOU don't know how little YOU know.

That's one of the problems with self teaching.

 

[Dave OCD]

Sounds like that there are electricians here who feel threatened about others joining the industry. Almost reminds me of a closed society like the medical profession where people are handpicked because they know someone. People typically take apprenticeships because they either lack the ability to go to University, lack the experience or the competency to teach themselves.

If I have learned anything about the field so far is that it is concerned with safety more than anything else. So long as you choose the correct wiring, consider the environmental effects (like grouping), consider location, use the right conduits there is NO reason why someone like myself cannot become an electrician.

Fault finding? Thats funny because I have had plenty of fault finding experience, not just in wiring but in circuit boards as well.

A course like this is unsuitable for someone who has never looked at electricity and I agree that someone who has no previous knowledge should be able to go straight into industry. But for someone like me, this course is a great way to get into it considering the fact that I am already a proven engineer.

There are two ways that people here can respond to such courses:

A) Be a grumpy old man who sticks to the past and rejects the idea of someone taking a course
B) Accept the inevitable and do their best to assist such people to ensure that their practices are safe

If there are people here who genuinely think that someone like me is incapable because of this course (despite the fact that I have previous experience with electricity and electronics), then it just goes to show how little they know.

That is SO misguided and actually quite worrying. I'd say there are plenty of people who go to University who don't have the required intelligence and other essential attributes to become a good electrician. I know of several with meaningless degrees who are either unemployed or flipping burgers for example.
And if you really believe you can teach yourself everything without any mentoring from a decent and experienced tradesman you're clearly deluded ! No offence intended just my opinion.

 

[Adam W]

Here is a question for those who think that the petition should go through.

I have a degree in electronics, I have always been hands on (having a workshop with MANY tools including bandsaws, drill presses, woodworking bits, table saws etc etc...), and I am a very capable person. I am taking one of these so called "Short Courses", which clearly teaches all the theory behind domestic electrics. I have been fact checking the books to ensure that they are the real deal and have been very cautious. One of these books was written by the course for the sake of question asking and the latest book they sent me was Level 2 NVQ 2365.

The course also sent me the on site guide and the latest BS7671 (they are legit as they have the nice little hologram on the front page). Once I have done these few more modules I will start my practical training on-site so that they are sure I am able to do jobs to a good standard. (6 weeks in total).

Now if this petition where to go through I probably would not be able to start my own business so that I may work for myself. If I pass this course with flying colours then why should I not be able to install electrics? What makes me unqualified? Experience? What is experience? Just because I trained myself does not make me incapable. Or are you saying that it does?

Electricity is my life and has been since I was 12. I studied it at Warwick University and got a 2:1 in electronics which covered more theory than any electrician course can even touch. Three phase induction motors? Yup. High voltage switching? Yup (IGBJT), transformers and isolation? Yup.

I dont want to offend anyone here and I joined this forum so that I can learn from others. I also know that lately I have been making myself look like a bit of a fool (Wago Connectors and bathroom switches anyone ?), but electricity is in my blood.

So my question: With MY knowledge am I capable of doing electrics after this course I am taking?

I don't think the petition should go through, partly because there need to be more ways into the industry than working for your dad or uncle, but I also disagree with your opinion that a degree in electronics somehow automatically qualifies you to do anything you consider 'a step down' from what you were doing before.

I've worked with people who had backgrounds in electronics, computers, management etc and they were the worst - they thought they knew it all so wouldn't accept the benefit of anyone else's experience, instead throwing their weight around and demanding snappy answers as to how to do what should be the simplest tasks. I worked with one guy who kept going on about how he was on a 6 figure salary and could design complicated door entry systems and networked this that and the other; that's all good and well but he was being employed to wire light switches, which he didn't have a clue about.

There is a need to put a stop to people leaving a training centre after a short course in a classroom or on the internet, getting 'electrician' signwritten on a van after their name and go around passing them selves off as that onto the unsuspecting public, but the solution is not with knee-jerk reactions and appointing a body of jobsworths to create unnecessary hoops for everyone to jump through. I appreciate what the JIB are trying to do, but they are at best infuriating to deal with.

Think about driving a car - while it may be possible for someone who has never even sat in a real car to describe perfectly the theory behind driving it, maybe even be able to work a simulator, it would be dangerous to chuck them a car key and say "off you go". You need the practical experience in real world situations, and the way to gain that is under the supervision of someone more experienced.

 

[KennyKen]

Please the university spill... I've worked with Boil in the Bag sparks. Who have come from white collar professional background. Asking questions like what's an intermediate switch.

 

[sean_ork]

Please the university spill... I've worked with Boil in the Bag sparks. Who have come from white collar professional background. Asking questions like what's an intermediate switch.

Let's not be under the impression its just the 5WWs that seem not to know the basics :vanish:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...s/109076-3-way-lighting-circuit-question.html

 

[Martyc]

I've spent 3 years at college and there's a lot I wouldn't feel comfortable doing without reassurance, despite having been a maintenance manager, project managing property refurbishments and leading and managing teams of tradespeople from plumbers, plasterers, chippys and builders, being responsible for over £1m of turnover, yet that makes me no more of a tradesman.

Til you're there, on the tools doing it, all the theory in the world isn't going to help you (or me) and despite being in that boat myself, I understand why it's so hard to get into the trade properly. Who would want to pay someone who will cost the company time and money before they are actually earning it and their keep?

Or you could look at it like this, just because you know the theory behind holding a pencil, does that make you an artist?

 

[7029 dave]

That is SO misguided and actually quite worrying. I'd say there are plenty of people who go to University who don't have the required intelligence and other essential attributes to become a good electrician. I know of several with meaningless degrees who are either unemployed or flipping burgers for example.
And if you really believe you can teach yourself everything without any mentoring from a decent and experienced tradesman you're clearly deluded ! No offence intended just my opinion.

I just can't add anything to this Dave, you have summed it up.

 

[KennyKen]

Let's not be under the impression its just the 5WWs that seem not to know the basics :vanish:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...s/109076-3-way-lighting-circuit-question.html

Oh Dear!

 

[Dcf]

A criminal offence to work with electricity.no one could enforce that one tbh.
an end to short course "installers" would be more beneficial.
i get my brother to give me a hand now and again.
hes not a spark but is trained in comms,hv,Plc and motors and the like with his rov work
before that he was a coded welder doing power turbine refurbs so it's not like he has no crossover skills.
now ,I pay him the same rate that I pay another spark who sometimes helps me out.
is he as good ?....
no way
he is way too slow for electrical contracting work.its not his line of work that I know.
if I had my spark fitting something mundane like sockets the spark would have fitted 6 to my brothers 2
my spark is a 25 year + veteran of electrical contracting and is so meticulous and neat and tidy that I always introduce him as my towns no2 sparky to any of my customers who don't know him ,so you can't compare apples and oranges as the bar is set high.
but.....there s a massive difference between a proper all rounder and someone who has a bit of a clue but still needs a bit of schooling.
Oh aye who is no1 ......... Me of course!

 

[Alessandro]

What is Electrical Trainee?

 

[Darkwood]

What is Electrical Trainee?

Electrical Trainee is a derogative term for a short course, '5 week wonder', as a forum we don't like the term as it paints everyone with the same brush but it is aimed at the zero to hero sector who have no electrical knowledge or experience and 5 weeks later they are allowed to walk into someones house and wire it with no on site knowledge and only paper theory. These courses should only be aimed at those with electrical background but due to money hungry profit based training schemes they promise the world for thousands of pounds and leave the majority of those passing out of their depth and un-employable by establised companies.