Potterton Suprima HE 80 no lights at all...

[chris murphy]

I find the new PCB thing a bit of a con that comes down to poor production soldering at manufacture as most PCB faults I've had on various types of equipment over the last few years just need a little bit of time with a soldering iron to fix the dry joints

"Hello UNG",

I would agree that there have been some poorly manufactured PCB`s turning up in the recent past - even in Reputable Manufacturer`s Boilers.

The Dry Joint scenario has often been mentioned to Me by People who carry out Boiler Repairs - although I am sure that resoldering them is not a particularly daunting task [?] - I wonder how many Electricians would actually try to do that ?

Is it likely that this would be viewed by the Manufacturer as refitting a `Substandard Part` ?

I ponder this because the fitting of Parts that are NOT Manufacturers `Original` Parts can result in a Prosecution IF they are subsequently found to have Malfunctioned - Or `Put the Appliance at Risk` - words to that effect.

It could be viewed as the Resoldering of the Dry Joint on the PCB rendered it NOT an `Original` or New Manufacturers Spare Part - ?

Obviously I realise that this would probably Never come to light all of the time that the PCB was working O.K. - unless there was a future Problem and the next Repair Engineer picked up on the Resoldered Joint - IF it could be noticed [?].


Just something to think about - The Boiler Manufacturers ARE getting increasingly vigilant regarding the Spares etc. that are fitted to their Boilers - because of Dangerous Incidents in the past where `Compatible Parts` were fitted which caused BIG Problems.


By the way - I am sure that You would do an Excellent Job of Resoldering a Dry Joint on a PCB - My comments are in NO Way directed at your expertise and knowledge.


Regards,


Chris

 

[MarkieSparkie]

I find the new PCB thing a bit of a con that comes down to poor production soldering at manufacture as most PCB faults I've had on various types of equipment over the last few years just need a little bit of time with a soldering iron to fix the dry joints

The increased frequency of solder dry joints in production soldering is the result of the removal/reduction of cadmium and lead in modern solders in order to meet H&S demands.

 

[chris murphy]

The increased frequency of solder dry joints in production soldering is the result of the removal/reduction of cadmium and lead in modern solders in order to meet H&S demands.

"Hello again MarkieSparkie",


I am certain that You are correct about that - I wonder if the People who actually handle the PCB`s benefit in any way from this ?


I assume that PCB`s are now entirely Manufactured by machines [?] - these machines in a European Factory would obviously have a Fume Extract facility for the Soldering Process Fumes - I wonder if that is so in the Far East / China / Taiwan / Korea where I think a lot of PCB`s are Manufactured ?

Although Soldering Copper Pipework Joints is something that I have been doing for all of My Working Life - I hope that I have NOT caused any Damage to My Lungs - I have made a point of NOT breathing in the Fumes from the Flux and Solder [Hopefully] - perhaps Unlike working in a PCB Soldering Plant in the areas of the World that I mentioned - ?

I do realise that the Soldering on a PCB cannot be compared to that carried out in Heating Plumbing & Gas Pipework - But there are obviously Fumes and the PCB`s are Manufactured / Soldered by the Millions in these Factories.


Regards,


Chris


P.S. We are both Up late Tonight ! - Did You get any Snow ?

 

[UNG]

I wonder how many Electricians would actually try to do that ?

I think it's a skill that isn't taught anymore. The number of times I have seen the bird**** soldering method and they expect it to work

Is it likely that this would be viewed by the Manufacturer as refitting a `Substandard Part` ?

I ponder this because the fitting of Parts that are NOT Manufacturers `Original` Parts can result in a Prosecution IF they are subsequently found to have Malfunctioned - Or `Put the Appliance at Risk` - words to that effect.

It could be viewed as the Resoldering of the Dry Joint on the PCB rendered it NOT an `Original` or New Manufacturers Spare Part - ?

My only reply to your comment and any manufacturer would be it was substandard when it was originally fitted at manufacture my repair has improved the quality of the original PCB why would I want to fit another substandard PCB and . Also while saving the customer money it is a form of recycling so more green than the manufacturers preferred repair method. I do wonder whether the poor soldering is actually a method used to generate income from replacement parts for the manufacturers

 

[chris murphy]

I think it's a skill that isn't taught anymore. The number of times I have seen the bird**** soldering method and they expect it to work




My only reply to your comment and any manufacturer would be it was substandard when it was originally fitted at manufacture my repair has improved the quality of the original PCB why would I want to fit another substandard PCB and . Also while saving the customer money it is a form of recycling so more green than the manufacturers preferred repair method. I do wonder whether the poor soldering is actually a method used to generate income from replacement parts for the manufacturers

"Hello again UNG",

I hope that I made it clear that I was playing `The Devils Advocate` in My comments - I totally agree with what You stated about the Re-Soldered PCB / any Manufacturers comment - BUT I think that there could be a Problem IF it was ever brought to a Court - Or the attention of the Health and Safety Executive.

IF a Manufacturer wanted to make a point - BECAUSE they did not want People repairing the PCB`s in a Boiler - I am fairly sure that the Gas Regulations / British Standards which cover `Manufacturers Instructions` / Manufacturer Approved Gas Appliance Spare Parts would enable a Court to rule `For` the Manufacturer.

And IF You are NOT Gas Safe Registered [?] - You could find yourself in all sorts of `Trouble` after refitting a Repaired PCB to a Gas Boiler.


I have Posted these comments NOT to contradict You - But to perhaps make others think twice before attempting to `Repair` any Part from a Gas Boiler or ANY Gas Appliance.

Others might not have the Skill and Knowledge that You have - AND in any event the Repair of a Gas Appliance is a `Heavily Regulated` Task - In that ONLY Gas Safe Registered Persons are Legally allowed to carry out these repairs - and even then - using ONLY `Manufacturer Approved Spare Parts`.


Regards,


Chris

 

[UNG]

"Hello again UNG",

I hope that I made it clear that I was playing `The Devils Advocate` in My comments - I totally agree with what You stated about the Re-Soldered PCB / any Manufacturers comment - BUT I think that there could be a Problem IF it was ever brought to a Court - Or the attention of the Health and Safety Executive.

IF a Manufacturer wanted to make a point - BECAUSE they did not want People repairing the PCB`s in a Boiler - I am fairly sure that the Gas Regulations / British Standards which cover `Manufacturers Instructions` / Manufacturer Approved Gas Appliance Spare Parts would enable a Court to rule `For` the Manufacturer.

While I take on board your comments about the potential issues of component repair if the manufacturers were to make a point I'm sure that it could be countered that the original part was not fit for purpose let's face it some of these PCB failures after a few years service are laughable. The replacement of a PCB can be quite a substantial proportion of the original boiler cost in some cases within 2-3 years of installation with no guarantee that it will not fail again. I wonder how it would look for the manufacturer if it was found that the poor quality of the PCB manufacture had caused a death or injury

 

[chris murphy]

While I take on board your comments about the potential issues of component repair if the manufacturers were to make a point I'm sure that it could be countered that the original part was not fit for purpose let's face it some of these PCB failures after a few years service are laughable. The replacement of a PCB can be quite a substantial proportion of the original boiler cost in some cases within 2-3 years of installation with no guarantee that it will not fail again. I wonder how it would look for the manufacturer if it was found that the poor quality of the PCB manufacture had caused a death or injury

"Hello UNG",


Sorry that I have not seen your Post until Today - Saturday 11th.

I admire your confidence and while I agree with what you have stated about the PCB`s I take from your Answers to Me that You are either Gas Safe Registered OR that You would also view your Technical expertise as proof of `Competence to Work on Gas Appliances` - If You were to be challenged by Gas Safe or the Health & Safety Executive about the PCB soldering / repair & replace process ?



I am NOT Posting this to be offensive - or trying to be Sarcastic - I would just be interested in Your Views about that point.


Regards,


Chris

 

[UNG]

Chris

I don't know of any PCB that has gas directly connected to it so I don't see any reason that doesn't make it perfectly safe to repair it IMO after all it is an electrical control unit

As I have said before a repaired PCB is invariably more reliable than the original yet the H&S still allow the gas industry to fit inferior quality PCB's in new equipment despite the BBC's Watchdog reports.
You talk of a failure using a repaired PCB and the cosequences but not of the consequences an original PCB may cause when it fails

The decision that PCB's must be replaced is down to industry pressure from the manufacturers IMO as parts income for manufacturers is easy money and non electrically qualified gas engineers are replacing like for like due to to a lack of knowledge and the manufacturers fault finding flow chart says replace not repair PCB.
I would love to know the unit cost to the boiler manufacturers of these PCB's as from what I have seen none of them are less than £120 and seem overly priced for the content of them

With regard to repairing boiler PCB's there are companies on the web that do a PCB exchange service and advertise that they refurbish / repair faulty PCB's how many engineers are using these people and making a fast buck from the customer when they replace a PCB with a repaired / refurbed one

As for confidence yes I am confident of my technical ability gained in a number of different areas of the electrical and related industries over the last 35+ years when I started in the electrical industry at 16 (already had 10 years experience of stripping engines and gearboxes and repairing cars) I was taught to repair and rebuild equipment and to be honest it was possibly more green and eco friendly then than it is now with the it's broke rip it out and bin it mentality that exists now due to lack of training and the thing that has been mentioned in other threads the deskilling.

If it can't be fixed then by all means fit a new replacement, until they ban soldering irons and the sale of solder I don't see any reason to stop repairing PCB's to component level

Regards

George

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello George",


Thanks for your detailed reply.


I am NOT stating this in any kind of `Jobsworth Attitude` - BUT when You stated this:


`I don't know of any PCB that has gas directly connected to it so I don't see any reason that doesn't make it perfectly safe to repair it IMO after all it is an electrical control unit`



Legally I`m afraid that You really could not be more Wrong - ANY Item that is fitted within a Gas Appliance which forms part of the Operation / Control System of the Appliance can ONLY be fitted / removed and re-fitted by a Gas Safe Registered Gas Installer.


An Electrician is Legally allowed to connect wiring to a Gas Boiler / Appliance because this does NOT involve `Working On`/ Altering any of the Operating / Control / Gas Items.

But even the connecting of wiring to enable a Gas Appliance to operate would be Legally contentious IF it had NOT been previously Installed and Commissioned by a Registered Gas Installer.

When I mentioned Your confidence I meant Your confidence in that you are `Legally Competent` and `Allowed` to be able to carry out this Remove and Repair Work on Gas Boilers / Appliances.

It was NOT a Sarcastic remark doubting your Expertise and Knowledge.

I also take your point on Non Electrically Qualified Gas Engineers and the `Bin it and Replace it` culture.

But there are Legal Stipulations regarding the Replacement Parts that are fitted to Gas Appliances - these basically state that ONLY Manufacturer Approved Parts can be used - ANY Repaired Part would obviously not fall within this catagory.


Regards,


Chris

 

[UNG]

But there are Legal Stipulations regarding the Replacement Parts that are fitted to Gas Appliances - these basically state that ONLY Manufacturer Approved Parts can be used - ANY Repaired Part would obviously not fall within this catagory.

Chris

Sorry to be picky a repaired PCB is not a replacement and the original faultily manufactured PCB is manufacturer approved

As I stated previously this is a licence for the manufacturer to print money protected by the men in suits, I can only assume from the number of people you hear of that have had a boiler PCB replaced that the industry accepts poor quality manufacture as an acceptable expense for the customer and a nice little earner for themselves

 

[chris murphy]

Chris

Sorry to be picky a repaired PCB is not a replacement and the original faultily manufactured PCB is manufacturer approved

As I stated previously this is a licence for the manufacturer to print money protected by the men in suits, I can only assume from the number of people you hear of that have had a boiler PCB replaced that the industry accepts poor quality manufacture as an acceptable expense for the customer and a nice little earner for themselves

"Hello George",


I am also Sorry to be Picky - But the removal and re-fitting of ANY Part on a Gas Appliance by Anyone who is NOT Gas Safe Registered is Illegal - this applies to even taking out a Part to `Look at it` - let alone Repair it.

I notice that You did not respond to that point of My message.


Anyway - the Last thing that I want to do is to get into an argument with You about this - I appreciate your points which have been well made - and I agree with most of what You have written.


Regards,


Chris

 

[boldspark]

Hello
i have a potterton suprima he 80 boiler which was fitted about 2005. We have had loads of issues with it. Two fans. Pressure switches etc and most recently a new pub was fitted by British Gas...

Now that's what I call a 5 star service, does it have a heated smoking area?

 

[boldspark]

Didn't read through the whole tread, but from your original description, I'd say it's wired up wrong and the fault is likely to be in the wiring centre.

 

[needasparks]

I Did see this thread but I could not comment on it as boilers are not my thing, However I had a callout today to someone with exactly the same boiler and the customer told me they have had the pcb replaced three times so far. British gas had told them there was something wrong with the wiring in the house and had to leave them with no heating as the boiler would not work.
On inspection it was very obvious the property had no main earthing or bonding to anything.

Testing was showing 150volts to all pipework and socket earths everywhere which i think was the issues with the boiler, As soon as i corrected this I tried the boiler and hey ho off she went, all singing and dancing which they loved as not had heating for six days.
No one associated this problem to the earthing so Its a long shot but due to similar probs and boiler i thought it maybe the answer. Hope this may help.

 

[page3]

Hi all.

Did the original poster ever resolve this and if so what was the solution?

I have exactly the same boiler, now with exactly the same problem.

Over the last 8 months it has occasionally (every month or so) gone to lockout with a different fault each time. We had the boiler serviced and it was given a clean bill of health, except for a failing PCB which I'm told is a common issue.

True to form, a few weeks ago it went to lockout "ignition failure" and refused to clear, so we called out the same boiler engineer (who we were impressed with last time). He diagnosed a faulty PCB after a lot of testing and duly replaced it. All worked perfectly for four days, when it got boiler lockout "ignition failure" again. This time occasionally all the lights on the boiler would go off - to come back on an hour or so later. Since then we've had an ignition lockout, a PCB failure message and several complete all lights out before coming back to life - just like the original poster's issue.

The engineer has come back and checked everything he can - including those areas suggested here. He is now thinking it must be a faulty replacement PCB as no other fault can be found.

I'd appreciate any help or suggestions!