Practicality of 400 volt equipment

[Cookie]

Would it be practical, or technically possible to economically mass produce 400 volt single phase consumer goods? Light bulbs, kettles, heaters, chargers, TVs, hobs, vacuum cleaners, washers, dryers, microwaves, tools, ect ect?

I'm thinking this would save a lot of copper and make wiring both easier and safer. A 1mm2 cable on a 10 amp breaker would give 4,000 watts of power.

 

[Julie.]

Sorry Julie disagree with your reasoning

In what way?

 

[Pete999]

In what way?

Your reasoning shows no essence just random wording.

 

[rapparee]

Nobø Front 400V | Nobo

en.nobo.no

It already exists.

 

[Julie.]

Your reasoning shows no essence just random wording.

Well I thought it made sense!

It is still possible to use any voltage you want to suit your purpose, yes there are standards such as 230/400, or 380/660, or 1000v as per iec 60038.

However the 230/400 is most common purely because for the most part the current levels are manageable i.e cable sizes, the insulation needs are not onourous and most simple circuit breaker technologies can handle it.

That's why it has become the standard from all the options.

In the same way three phase makes the most sense - its more efficient than single or two phase, but also no less efficient than 4, 5,6,7.... phase.

Does that make it clearer?
[automerge]1600022035[/automerge]

Nobø Front 400V | Nobo

en.nobo.no

It already exists.

There are lots of equipment that is single phase 400v - but its usually just in industrial settings, for example control transformers are usually phase to phase as there often isn't a neutral.

I took the op to mean why don't we use 400v across the board as standard rather than 230v

 

[Cookie]

In which case you cannot use 230V equipment!

it's only 400V in relation to a three phase circuit - each breaker is only operating at 230V if you use a single breaker then it must be 400V

All UK domestic equipment is 230v, switches etc

Yes SOME industrial kit is rated at 660V - but even that isn't sufficient, you would need 800v three phase kit for each breaker to open single phase 400V (700V but that's not standard)

A three phase set of breakers does not mean each is capable of opening 400V

Right.

400 volt rated switches, sockets and light fittings.

Two and 3 pole breakers are already slash rated 230/400Y.

 

[Cookie]

Nobø Front 400V | Nobo

en.nobo.no

It already exists.

Are the coils 400 volts or just multiple 230 volt coils?

 

[westward10]

Your reasoning shows no essence just random wording.

I have absolutely no idea why you disagree with @Julie. and your response is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[Julie.]

Right.

400 volt rated switches, sockets and light fittings.

Two and 3 pole breakers are already slash rated 230/400Y.

In terms of iec equipment 230/400 refers to 230v ph - e/n and 400v ph-ph

They are only suitable for 400v if they are multiple pole.

 

[Cookie]

Well I thought it made sense!

It is still possible to use any voltage you want to suit your purpose, yes there are standards such as 230/400, or 380/660, or 1000v as per iec 60038.

However the 230/400 is most common purely because for the most part the current levels are manageable i.e cable sizes, the insulation needs are not onourous and most simple circuit breaker technologies can handle it.

That's why it has become the standard from all the options.

In the same way three phase makes the most sense - its more efficient than single or two phase, but also no less efficient than 4, 5,6,7.... phase.

Does that make it clearer?
[automerge]1600022035[/automerge]


There are lots of equipment that is single phase 400v - but its usually just in industrial settings, for example control transformers are usually phase to phase as there often isn't a neutral.

I took the op to mean why don't we use 400v across the board as standard rather than 230v

6 phase is actually more efficent, but I've read that its not worth the extra complexity.

If we were to mass produce 400 volt consumer products, would it be more expensive than 230 volt consumer was my primary questions- though its not really confined to that only. Anything and everything is open to discussion around this subject.

In terms of iec equipment 230/400 refers to 230v ph - e/n and 400v ph-ph

They are only suitable for 400v if they are multiple pole.

True. The only thing that will need to be re-designed are single pole switches.

 

[rapparee]

Are the coils 400 volts or just multiple 230 volt coils?

A 400v element is inside it along with 400v controller

We manufacture it for the Scandinavian market

 

[Cookie]

A 400v element is inside it along with 400v controller

We manufacture it for the Scandinavian market

These heaters are these start of something great! Do you have pictures of the internals by chance? What electronic components (rating/type) you use on the circuit board? The tracks on the board? I'm assuming its directly across the mains.

 

[Julie.]

6 phase is actually more efficent, but I've read that its not worth the extra complexity.

If we were to mass produce 400 volt consumer products, would it be more expensive than 230 volt consumer was my primary questions- though its not really confined to that only. Anything and everything is open to discussion around this subject.




True. The only thing that will need to be re-designed are single pole switches.

Not really, the whole wiring systems are designed around 230/400v rather than 400v

Switches and breakers are the most obvious, but my whole point is there are and have been other voltages, but the balance of advantages/disadvantages appears to work out around the 230/400v mark which is why it has ended up being the voltage range of choice.

It may be that as technology advances, and we develop new materials, that this balance may actually move to higher, or lower voltages than it currently is, but then do you redevelop everything for a marginal gain.

Where it isn't a marginal gain, then equipment is chosen at different voltages - but such a choice comes at a cost.

I have worked on many sites where all industrial equipment is at 660v, 1000v, 1.5kV or 3.3kV etc in order to reduce the current over large distances, however the cost is limited choice of switchgear, cables etc.

Ultimately its best to have a single standard, which whilst isn't the most efficient in all cases is sufficiently efficient that the advantage of simplicity outweighs the complexity of multiple standards

 

[Cookie]

Not really, the whole wiring systems are designed around 230/400v rather than 400v

Switches and breakers are the most obvious, but my whole point is there are and have been other voltages, but the balance of advantages/disadvantages appears to work out around the 230/400v mark which is why it has ended up being the voltage range of choice.

It may be that as technology advances, and we develop new materials, that this balance may actually move to higher, or lower voltages than it currently is, but then do you redevelop everything for a marginal gain.

Where it isn't a marginal gain, then equipment is chosen at different voltages - but such a choice comes at a cost.

I have worked on many sites where all industrial equipment is at 660v, 1000v, 1.5kV or 3.3kV etc in order to reduce the current over large distances, however the cost is limited choice of switchgear, cables etc.

Ultimately its best to have a single standard, which whilst isn't the most efficient in all cases is sufficiently efficient that the advantage of simplicity outweighs the complexity of multiple standards

You're forgetting the history. The world started off with 110-127 volts. Eventually 127/220 in that 110-127 volts was just to low as it could not meet the needs to heaters and motors. Then came the discovery that the advantages associated with 220 volt could be extended to small equipment and associated branch circuits. 220 became the norm- hence why the schuko plug is not polarised.

When 220 volts became the norm for all single phase equipment, people realized that 220/380 met the needs of ever larger motors in typical buildings and long public supplies.

The thing is, today we are stuck on a dual voltage system without any investigation made if 400 volt single phase equipment might be more practical than 230 volt equipment.

 

[Julie.]

You're forgetting the history. The world started off with 110-127 volts. Eventually 127/220 in that 110-127 volts was just to low as it could not meet the needs to heaters and motors. Then came the discovery that the advantages associated with 220 volt could be extended to small equipment and associated branch circuits. 220 became the norm- hence why the schuko plug is not polarised.

When 220 volts became the norm for all single phase equipment, people realized that 220/380 met the needs of ever larger motors in typical buildings and long public supplies.

The thing is, today we are stuck on a dual voltage system without any investigation made if 400 volt single phase equipment might be more practical than 230 volt equipment.

No, not forgetting, but the first generation and distribution of electricity was in the uk in the 1880s it distributed ac 250v and 40v for different types of lighting.

I think it was in Godalming

Next was 110v dc in London


I certainly don't think we arrived at ~230v by accident without any thought, in Germany for example they specifically altered all their equipment from 127v to 240v to take advantage of the lower current, without too many issues with high voltage - other countries followed similar changes settling at various voltages mainly in the 200-250v for household and higher for industrial.

The compromise of 230v is fairly recent in those terms

 

[Cookie]

No, not forgetting, but the first generation and distribution of electricity was in the uk in the 1880s it distributed ac 250v and 40v for different types of lighting.

I think it was in Godalming

Next was 110v dc in London


I certainly don't think we arrived at ~230v by accident without any thought, in Germany for example they specifically altered all their equipment from 127v to 240v to take advantage of the lower current, without too many issues with high voltage - other countries followed similar changes settling at various voltages mainly in the 200-250v for household and higher for industrial.

The compromise of 230v is fairly recent in those terms

What investigation is there of 400 volts? Remember that incandescent bulbs no longer play a role where high voltages mean higher gas fills and thinner, longer, cooler running filaments. LEDs can be fed via driver. Caps and resistors can drop 400 volts to the required series parellel voltages.