Pricing a commercial PIR in an office

[accordfire]

i cant belive some of the prices 5000 quid / 80 circ £62 pounds per circ

if we were 1/2 that in my area we still would be too much

fair play if you can get that

Market forces.

As said in another post, for London, certainly, you won't get a light fitting changed by a lazy, dodgy sparks for less than £300. Thinking about it, even then, you don't get the light fitting changed - only the switch that didn't need changing.

It's not out of the park for most HOURLY rates in the South east.

 

[IQ Electrical]

To be honest, we're on the cheap end locally - South East generally - Central London will see a hundred quid a circuit easily.

More selective editing!

Seriously though, we've been carrying out commercial PIR's for the last 10 years and in that time, I've personally been involved in many competitive tendering processes and I can say hand on heart that the highest per-circuit cost that I've ever seen was £35.00 per circuit!

I know there's a North-South divide but seriously, has anyone on this forum been involved in a standard PIR at £100+ per circuit?

That's £10,000 for an average 100 circuit office that we'd be looking at completing within 4 days for 2 men!

 

[Mr Mark Sparks]

as i said before fair play if you can get it

charge as much as you can obviously

i just know in the norwich area what the going rates are.

 

[accordfire]

More selective editing!

Seriously though, we've been carrying out commercial PIR's for the last 10 years and in that time, I've personally been involved in many competitive tendering processes and I can say hand on heart that the highest per-circuit cost that I've ever seen was £35.00 per circuit!

I know there's a North-South divide but seriously, has anyone on this forum been involved in a standard PIR at £100+ per circuit?

That's £10,000 for an average 100 circuit office that we'd be looking at completing within 4 days for 2 men!

Yes. Not under my own steam, but as part of a larger tendering process (Central London borough) for my last employer (all that time ago).

And they won it. It averaged £122.50 a circuit, and from memory there were some 1630 circuits over several sites for testing. That was 2007!

We've recently quoted a Central London site for Fire, PIR, and CCTV - the PIR element we went in at £45 a circuit (48 circuits), purely because we're on site for other things too (and there's parking for us on site) - we'd have been around £80 a circuit minimum otherwise simply due to parking costs, and time over and above that on the job.

The middle of London is a scarily expensive place to do business these days!

For the record, had we been asked to do that job say in Manchester, or Birmingham, the pricing would have been more like £40-£45 a circuit anyway.

I know we've been up against quotes from Central London based companies in the region of £100 - £120 a circuit too on that job - and not just one quote.

 

[accordfire]

as i said before fair play if you can get it

charge as much as you can obviously

i just know in the norwich area what the going rates are.

Yeah, there is that.

It isn't a case of charging as much as we can get away with - certainly not with the customers we look after - but charging what we need to cover costs, and hit the margins we need to grow and survive.

There's another angle to all of this.

Employing guys costs money. Using all your time on one job means you can't be somewhere else unless you employ guys.

And the downside of employing guys is you have to pay 'em no matter what. That adds to costs too.

 

[MFHEng]

You know, I really ought to slow down sometimes and LOOK at what's been said before butting in.

I actually read that as you'd been asked to quote for PIR switches to control lighting.......idiot that I am.

So, assuming I am an idiot, and assuming what you actually wanted a ballpark for was carrying out an inspection on 80 circuits.......

Ballpark, assuming worst case of missing info, no idea what's on a circuit and what isn't - probably around the £5k mark - you're looking to aim for an hour and a half a circuit I would say. Five circuits a day, give or take.

An hour and a half a circuit!!!!!!!!!!!! five circuits a day!!!!!!!!!!!!! £5000 for the whole job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think thats really in the true spirit of PIR's. It dosent take an hour and a half to test 1 circuit.

80 circuits in an office environment should be arround 4 days plus a day to formulate the report .So a total of 40 hours for one man at what ever your hourly rate is. If you have an hourly rate of say £25 which is a National average the total cost would be arround £1000.00.

This is without any consideration of the installations test history and therefore the possibility of applying a percentage sample regime.

Remember you are carrying out an inspection and test for a condition report, not stripping the instalation down and rebuiling it

 

[accordfire]

An hour and a half a circuit!!!!!!!!!!!! five circuits a day!!!!!!!!!!!!! £5000 for the whole job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That seems to be the way my calculator works too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think thats really in the true spirit of PIR's. It dosent take an hour and a half to test 1 circuit.

What, precisely is the true spirit of a PIR? Is it not to properly test, inspect, and record the circuit any longer?

I agree with you, however, it does not take an hour and a half just to test the circuit. There's also setting up the test, documenting, finding out what's on the circuit, admin time, reconnecting the circuit, waiting time while plant and IT and other equipment are shut down properly, and so on.

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong?

Is it now like PAT testing, where we simply turn up with a box, batter a few buttons, and hope to hell we remembered not to leave the tester on the 25A setting before we connected it to the computer?

80 circuits in an office environment should be arround 4 days plus a day to formulate the report .So a total of 40 hours for one man at what ever your hourly rate is. If you have an hourly rate of say £25 which is a National average the total cost would be arround £1000.00.

You don't work in Central London, do you. No such thing as a national average in the middle of London, unless you plan on being out of business fast. £25 an hour would barely cover the parking, let alone getting out of the vehicle and walking the (average) mile or so to the site.

Likewise, I guess you don't work on many multi-floor offices either - or old ones.

I've no idea what's on those circuits as I said, and the OP gave the impression he didn't either. As I said clearly, the ballpark figures I gave assumed NO INFORMATION for any of the circuits to be tested - that's quite typical for a first PIR anywhere we go.

I'll say this much though - if you're willing to do PIR testing on our behalf in the middle of London for those prices, I know a few companies that will bite your arm off all day long.

This is without any consideration of the installations test history and therefore the possibility of applying a percentage sample regime.

Remember you are carrying out an inspection and test for a condition report, not stripping the instalation down and rebuiling it

Ah. So, apples and oranges once again, even after you managed to quote me saying "assuming a worst case.............no history.......". Dangerous practice not to account for the history or otherwise, of an installation from a commercial point of view. Someone asks for a BALLPARK figure, I'm always going to assume worst case, and cover my derriere.

And yes, whilst it is true that the essence of the job is test and inspection, are you seriously telling me that you'll come across level one non-compliances and do nothing about them other than report or disconnect? You'd be happy to leave circuits critical to the business you're testing for disconnected?

Sorry, friend, but we ALL quote based on our own experiences, assuming jobs we undertake regularly, often without thought to the fact that there ARE geographical differences affecting the business aspects of what we do. There's also the consideration of the fact that I am fully aware of what a PIR involves, and don't really need a lesson in how to run my own business. Perhaps your comments were intended a little differently than that?

I would say again, if you can cover a week's work anywhere in London for a grand a week, you're doing something very few other businesses, OR SUBBIES, I know have been able to achieve. And I do know a few.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I think this illustrates the problem with the 'how much for.....' thread.

We're all finely tuned to our own overheads, working areas and other variables that these price threads become meaningless!

If I charged Bill's prices, I'd be out of business, if Bill charged my prices, he'd be out of business

There is no right or wrong!

 

[pennywise]

25k final price or I'm going underIt is true as above

 

[accordfire]

I think this illustrates the problem with the 'how much for.....' thread.

We're all finely tuned to our own overheads, working areas and other variables that these price threads become meaningless!

If I charged Bill's prices, I'd be out of business, if Bill charged my prices, he'd be out of business

There is no right or wrong!

That's a key part of what I was (trying to) explain.

Perhaps the first question we should all be asking is "where's the job?"...........

It is interesting, especially for me, to note how prices vary over the UK though.

Given we work nationally, we pretty well always price centrally, given a quantified number of properties, systems disciplines, and likely time on a site for each guy/discipline. It results in an averaging of prices, usually irrespective of locality - but threads like these are also key to intelligence as to what we're up against locally. Perhaps we'd do a lot worse if we were competing for work on a per site, per locality basis. We're not set up that way though.

We can also offset certain elements of pricing by virtue of the fact that where we might have three guys on a site covering off the work needed, we don't necessarily have three vehicles going there, three lots of parking, and three sets of everything else - we're quite good at the logistics bit of it, ensuring we get guys on site as cheaply as we can, with all required tools, materials, test kit, etc., that all has an effect on the final price too.

And we always survey a job first too - albeit for multiples, we might only go to a sample two or three sites to see what's "typical".

And every last bit of that said, we don't aim to be the cheapest on any given work task - we sell on value and quality, rather than budget. I know we're not the cheapest on most of the work we win, but I do know we offer more, and that whoever wins the site after us will have full, proper documentation of every aspect of the site and systems we've worked on.

We've not had one disappointed customer yet, and while the business has only been running a year or so, we haven't lost any customers on re-signs at all. I'm proud of that. Our average conversion rate from quote to customer, so far, is running at 1:2.6, which I'm also intensely proud of, considering the volume and type of work we do.

 

[MFHEng]

Bill

Even if your working in central london, charging £65 per circuit is way over and I'm surprised and shocked that you pick up work. As you say it depends on the individual job etc. but £65 per circuit is not a ballpark figure, it is the very top of the scale and a scale most sane Facility managers would not entertain. Given that I would be carefull how you justify london rates on a site that has less geographically challenged sparks, that may just pay the parking (or take advantage of the tube) and earn a decent wage for less than half the price you charge per circuit.

Everyone is entitled to their own view as you have said and that is quite correct , but in the same light you can't make bravodo fuelled statements about the high rates you quote and not expect to recieve some flack.

 

[accordfire]

Bill

Even if your working in central london, charging £65 per circuit is way over and I'm surprised and shocked that you pick up work. As you say it depends on the individual job etc. but £65 per circuit is not a ballpark figure, it is the very top of the scale and a scale most sane Facility managers would not entertain. Given that I would be carefull how you justify london rates on a site that has less geographically challenged sparks, that may just pay the parking (or take advantage of the tube) and earn a decent wage for less than half the price you charge per circuit.

Hmm.

Perhaps you can explain competitor quotes we see daily of way in excess of £65 a circuit? Of course, we see them at the other end too, and too often, the results of those trying to get away with charging low end.

Most sane FM managers (many of whom we work for) know the difference between realistic pricing and those trying to get away with little more than "issuing a cert" for the money - or worse, those that just don't really know how to carry out a PIR properly. Not one we've priced for, or work for, has indicated we're charging too much.

I can justify "London rates" against what you term "less geographically challenged rates" based on considerable experience, based on national feedback, and based on what my business need to generate across the board to pay our staff, run our vehicles, remain in business, and many other factors.

As regards the future, and the stability, of my business, believe, I am always very careful. I have directly, and indirectly, the welfare of many people to consider - the lads who work very hard for me, their families, and others dependent upon them too.

With parking at £14 an hour and more in Central London especially, £25 an hour is never, ever going to cover costs, considering that "hour" may also necessitate an additional £8 worth of congestion charge.

Doubtless, many out there could make a decent "living" charging half of that outside of the middle of London - that said, I'm not a one man band, by a long shot. Running a business, sadly, costs money, as does employing people.

All that said, I really am not at all sure what you are basing any of your assumptions on - for example, what your experience is, where you're based, the size and scope of business you run, or any of it - what I mean is that I have no idea at all what your justifications for your arguments are - none of them are at all qualified, whereas I have qualified every one of the statements and assumptions I've made.

Everyone is entitled to their own view as you have said and that is quite correct , but in the same light you can't make bravodo fuelled statements about the high rates you quote and not expect to recieve some flack.

Yes, indeed. And in that same light, it isn't really that intelligent to assume that comments are "bravado" when the reasoning and the assumptions on which the ballpark figure was given are, and have been, made quite clear.

I'm interested to know how you come to consider any of what I have said as "bravado fuelled" - particularly since you've justified not one part of your own comments telling me how "unrealistic" my business is, despite the proof to the contrary. I rather suspect the bravado you see is a reflection in your mirror here.

So, please - enlighten us as to how you arrive at your own conclusions, and we may then come to a better understanding of one and other's business.

 

[MFHEng]

Bill

You just don't seem to be getting it. It takes about an hour do just over two circuits in the real world, thats £130 an hour + on your figures. I'm not to interested in the hype and what you say you do, the truth is your overcharging and more than likely providing an overzealus approach to the regulations and guidance notes in order to pressure the poor ill informed people on your customer base.

Did you expect to state that it takes an hour and a half to test one circuit and think the world would accept it. There isn't an engineer on this site that is likely to agree with that time scale for basic circuits.

 

[accordfire]

Bill

You just don't seem to be getting it. It takes about an hour do just over two circuits in the real world, thats £130 an hour + on your figures. I'm not to interested in the hype and what you say you do, the truth is your overcharging and more than likely providing an overzealus approach to the regulations and guidance notes in order to pressure the poor ill informed people on your customer base.

Did you expect to state that it takes an hour and a half to test one circuit and think the world would accept it. There isn't an engineer on this site that is likely to agree with that time scale for basic circuits.

To be honest, I haven't got much to say to this, other than your idiotic comments are not at all appreciated.

Your comments are full of assumption, and to be honest, are rude, uninformed, and quite offensive.

You are making assumptions about me, my business, and my customers, and passing on comment you cannot hope ever to justify. In the "real world" you mention, you'd probably find yourself on the wrong side of a court action pretty fast.

If you want to start actually justifying some of these stupid, and damaging comments you're making, then I will listen and respond to you. Until then, I suggest, politely, that you refrain from making any further comment at all about me, my business, or my customer base, since you clearly actually know nothing about any one of them.

There's a vast difference between challenging someone on comments in a forum, given in good faith, on limited information, and the campaign of harassment and calumnity you're engaging in against me and my business here.

In simple terms, friend, leave your assumptions about my intentions, my business, and my customers out of it.