Problem customer

[eagleeye]

Hi guys I recently posted a message on here regarding a problem I have. Basically i fitted a new kitchen for them and new electrical circuits. RCD board and all. I noticed that the gas and water had no earth connection on them so told the lady and she didnt want me to do it as i would charge her because it wasnt part of my estimate. Also when i put in the new ringmain 2 sockets on the downstairs stopped working. The house needs a rewire as the wiring is in a right mess as are the old fuse boards and this problem would have been sorted out then. She was refusing to pay me for some other extra work that i did so i didnt give her a certificate until she sorted it out. She has now got in touch with the NICEIC who im registered with and they have sent me a letter about it. they want a response by 11th Feb. What do you people think about this?



Regards
Paul

 

[baldsparkies]

The situation reminds me of a job we went to look at to quote for a cu upgrade. The guy before us had also quoted for a kitchen fit. Customer was considering the fact that it might be better to have the one guy do the lot, but just wanted a second price for the board change. When the cover was removed, we were faced with a bunch of vir's. Also no gas bond
Explained the situation to the customer, but the other guy had not mentioned the old cabling or the lack of bonding. Now they were torn between who to believe.
I told them to get more opinions from other companies, so they could form an educated opinion on the true facts. But this kind of thing does happen a lot. Doesn't help the customer though.

 

[pushrod]

The situation reminds me of a job we went to look at to quote for a cu upgrade. The guy before us had also quoted for a kitchen fit. Customer was considering the fact that it might be better to have the one guy do the lot, but just wanted a second price for the board change. When the cover was removed, we were faced with a bunch of vir's. Also no gas bond
Explained the situation to the customer, but the other guy had not mentioned the old cabling or the lack of bonding. Now they were torn between who to believe.
I told them to get more opinions from other companies, so they could form an educated opinion on the true facts. But this kind of thing does happen a lot. Doesn't help the customer though.

forgive my ignorance - are they the old rubber insulated cables??

 

[flukey]

forgive my ignorance - are they the old rubber insulated cables??

you got it pushrod, the old vulcanised rubber cables

 

[dufjax]

My point was why keep on giving some one that ain't logged in for two days a kicking.

^^^^ IT STILL THE POINT I WAS RAISING ^^^^

I AGREE in principle with everything your saying.
I'm not condoning NON competent persons changing C/Us (See my post on Part P at it finest) or doing any other work.
I think the advice for him to leave well alone is still correct (when we'd established that we didn't have a clue about bonding).
I also DONT think the NIC should have approved him, and this is why I don't really agree with the limited (what ever it is ) scheme.
They can still use the NIC logo and to the customer look like they're the same as the NIC AC level, maybe even more approved because they have the word domestic in the title.


Jim

 

[baldsparkies]

The main problem seems to be coming from the fact that governing bodies are prepared to take money from people who may or may not have a limited knowledge of the electrical trade. They then cover some kind of course and at the end fill in a multi choice questionaire. If they hit a pass percentage they can then register to be affiliated with anyone from NICEIC to NAPPIT to ELECSA, whoever. Now provided they operate within there limitations thats not a problem. But if the attitude that having that sign on the side of my van means I can now go off and do whatever I choose, regardless of knowledge or experience, then thats where the problems will occur. As said its only since part P that this has really started happening. As a qualified electrician I simply would not dream of going off and covering a gas safety course, and then fit boilers and gas appliances to my hearts content because I managed to use the system and pick up a gas safe logo on my van.My personnel level of experience and competance would dictate. I have said it before and will again. The electrical industry is becoming a play ground for use as a second or side line trade. WELL ITS NOT. Its a highly skilled trade that needs to be handled with respect for the safety of all. By all means do these courses, but please work within the limitations of what you know, rather than whats written on paper.
And if what I say offends anyone, then ask yourself why am I offended. Why do I need to defend myself, and why are these comment hitting home ?? (If the cap fits)

 

[dufjax]

The main problem seems to be coming from the fact that governing bodies are prepared to take money from people who may or may not have a limited knowledge of the electrical trade. They then cover some kind of course and at the end fill in a multi choice questionaire. If they hit a pass percentage they can then register to be affiliated with anyone from NICEIC to NAPPIT to ELECSA, whoever. Now provided they operate within there limitations thats not a problem. But if the attitude that having that sign on the side of my van means I can now go off and do whatever I choose, regardless of knowledge or experience, then thats where the problems will occur. As said its only since part P that this has really started happening. As a qualified electrician I simply would not dream of going off and covering a gas safety course, and then fit boilers and gas appliances to my hearts content because I managed to use the system and pick up a gas safe logo on my van.My personnel level of experience and competance would dictate. I have said it before and will again. The electrical industry is becoming a play ground for use as a second or side line trade. WELL ITS NOT. Its a highly skilled trade that needs to be handled with respect for the safety of all. By all means do these courses, but please work within the limitations of what you know, rather than whats written on paper.
And if what I say offends anyone, then ask yourself why am I offended. Why do I need to defend myself, and why are these comment hitting home ?? (If the cap fits)

Agree totally.
Problem is what can we do about it.
Would a limited (defined scope of what ever we call it) be allowed to register a CU change with the NIC? (Sorry but I have little knowledge of the limited scope schemes).
and what do the NIC assess when they do limited scope assessments (are the cupboards level?)

Think it goes hand in hand with "Part P at it's finest"

Something needs to be done, but this close to an election no one is going to listen and to be honest don't think after (either party) will give a ****.


Jim

 

[uksel]

it's not supposed to be what 'we' do about it.
it's the governing bodies who are at fault for creating a system so open to abuse that it will inevitably cost someone dearly.

it surely can't be rocket science to have people who have completed the part p course, and register with a competent person scheme to be monitored??

basically everything that requires notification should reflect on the candidate. ie. a kitchen fitter putting in certs for a CU change???????????


WTF


how can that slip through the net????

taken from the Electricity at Work Regulations (EAWR)

• Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury
  16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.

 

[bugsy]

Absolutley, and it also dosent do much for the app's who are slogging their guts trying to get qualified, and when they have passed the exams clutching all the paper work they still can't change a C.U. (without doing part p ) dispite the fact they are proberbly 100 times more capable than handy andy

 

[martysparky]

My main trade is is not electrical it is mainly CCTV and AV but i decided to do a PART P and 17th edition course to benefit myself and to assist in the work that i do. I did have some electrical knowledge before doing the course but i would nothing extensive.

I sat a 5 day course with 9 other people their trades were mainly plumbers and kitchen fitters. To be honest 8 of them were not interested and all said we are here because we are being paid to be and took very little interest, but all of them said am i not doing all this testing stuff etc it's a waste of time.

The other guy was like myself interested to learn and do things properly, come the end of the week a multiple choice and practical exam was given which everyone sat and passed which i thought was wrong as i seen 3 guys mess up the safe isolation procedure.

At the end of the week we got offered to buy our own copy of the 17th regs which 2 of us bought, everyone elses attitude was we dont need that ****e and did not even bother to take there on site guide with them.

The whole course was a good course for people WANTING to learn but it is flawed by a poor exam, you will pass and this should be changed .

To me part p seems to be along the same lines as some of schemes in the security and TV aerial industries they are a good idea if they are policed properly but unfortanately there are holes in the net.

5 days is not enough for some people to become fully compitent to rewire a house or carry out work in special locations in my opinion.

I think alot also depends on the actual person carrying out the work whether they just want the money or want to so a proper job to a good standard. I know a couple of other trade people that carry out electrical work and there work is spot on.

I am not as experienced as most of the guys on here but i always do my best to check everything i do is done to the regs and if i am not sure i will ask someone that does whether on this forum or a family member who are sparks.

Some people are not interested in doing a job properly, some are to proud to ask. I find it easier to ask even if it is something simple or you know that you have made a cock up, better to get it sorted than get labeled a cowboy or leave something dangerous.

I know a couple of sparks who say people should stick to there own trade which i think is wrong, the amount of times i go to site and a spark has wired something up wrong or just got it totally wrong. I wont start ranting i would rather sort the problem out so it is right for next time and they also have learned not to do the same again.

When I did my Part P I was amazed at that what you have mentioned above too.
My attitude was I need to know everything to be COMPETENT enough to pass the exams including the practical.

My understanding was you need to know all from distance learning before you get to do the 5 day practical.

I was amazed how little some of the other guys new.

Clearly they hadn't bothered studying prior to the 5 day course.

I guess it boils down to who paid for them to do that course!

Did they really want to be there and when they got the paper they think extra spondoonies.
NOT A COMPETENT ATTITUDE to start with.

The training provider are at fault but the scheme provider surely should pick up all this on assessment so they are at fault in the main part for not recognizing in-competence.

It seem that the authorities are playing a waiting game to cash in with fines?
Why are they not raising public awareness??

Some / most of those guys scraped through and passed???
I passed with flying colours I.e. pass = 2 out of 5. I got 4-5 out of five multiple choice questions correct.
Admittedly some are tricky multiple choice questions but I think the answer should be backed up with a statement to show you do actually understand and have not just guessed correct.

One guy did fail his Part P exam after being guided through the EAL in those 5 days he didn't even pull check his terminations. I know this because he asked me to show him something in the CCU and I pulled the conductors to check as his work looked very shoddy guess what they all came straight out in my hand. The course instructor didn't notice because he didn't check he just done a visual. so, That assumes he has read up on or knows how to do things already. If he had passed the Part P exam I wouldn't want him anywhere near my house.

So, I agree just like any qualification there are people who want to know and do a good job and there are those who just want a piece of paper.

The ones that just want a piece of paper need a head examination, Like one guy said to me electrics is the easiest thing in the world, this wire here that wire there it like wiring a plug. Thats the trouble a lot of laymen / Handymen / DIY's think that is all that is too it!

The less you look the less you see the less you care!
The more you look the more you see and the more you'll find.

Just a few thoughts..

 

[lloyd1980]

ever heard the saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

inviting him back with any future issues is basically like saying

'ok mate, it's quite apparent you aint got an effing clue what you're doing, so any time you aint got a clue what needs to be done so you dont kill someone, you just come on here and we'll tell you what to do, the solid advice to give here, is stop doing electrical work that you are not qualified to do!'

balls to this I hope you're ok and everything works itself out - I hope they throw the book at you, that little thing called earthing that you overlooked could have cost someone their life!!!!!

giving people little drips of relevant information gives people confidence in their actions, which IMO is very dangerous - the only advice that should be given for electrical installation, testing & certification for self employed non-sparks is get someone qualified and competent to do the work.

the only paperwork that people without a 2391 qualification should be filling in is a minor electrical installation works certificate, if you aint heard of that - pay someone that has to do the work.


phew!

USKEL im not being funny, but everyone one her seems to get hung up over other people wanting to do sparking, its not exactly rocket science, Ive spent years and years gaining qualifiactions I am JIB approved 2319 17th edition 2330 level 3 nvq level 3 and building regs level 3
I haqve no issue in passing knowledge on to antone who wants to know, ask yourself this, is ther any difference between substandard wiring and a substandard wall installed by cowboy builders? in my view the wall is more dangerous as this is more likely to hurt someone by collapsing than 2.5mm being over rated by ohhhh 2 amps where the life may decrease by 20 years, ohh nooooooooooooooooooooo
call the police!!!!!
In my view knowledge is there to be shared and so what if these jeffery's know nowt, then its them whos in the **** if it goes wrong
just concentrate on doing a good job and thats all you can do
It really makes my blood boild when ~I hear people banging on about, ohh he's not part p he cant wire outside lights or isnt competant to test an installation
people in here need to get over themselves and realise although we arfe qualified sparks we are NOT masters of the universe and you cant slate someone for trying to make a living

 

[andrew692003]

USKEL im not being funny, but everyone one her seems to get hung up over other people wanting to do sparking, its not exactly rocket science, Ive spent years and years gaining qualifiactions I am JIB approved 2319 17th edition 2330 level 3 nvq level 3 and building regs level 3
I haqve no issue in passing knowledge on to antone who wants to know, ask yourself this, is ther any difference between substandard wiring and a substandard wall installed by cowboy builders? in my view the wall is more dangerous as this is more likely to hurt someone by collapsing than 2.5mm being over rated by ohhhh 2 amps where the life may decrease by 20 years, ohh nooooooooooooooooooooo
call the police!!!!!
In my view knowledge is there to be shared and so what if these jeffery's know nowt, then its them whos in the **** if it goes wrong
just concentrate on doing a good job and thats all you can do
It really makes my blood boild when ~I hear people banging on about, ohh he's not part p he cant wire outside lights or isnt competant to test an installation
people in here need to get over themselves and realise although we arfe qualified sparks we are NOT masters of the universe and you cant slate someone for trying to make a living

Thats quite good post Lloyd. I've been a sparky for 17 year now, I'm still learning and I do still make mistakes, I'm not proud enough to sit here and say I've never made a mistake!

I believe the lad came on here for a bit of advice, he's got a mouthfull and probably won't be back. I've not read all the posts on this thread but think back to when you had just finished serving your time.....did you know everything then? I know I sure as hell didn't and I don't know everything either...I'm still learning! I joined this forum a few weeks ago and I can say reading theses threads I've picked up some handy hints and a few rule changes I wasn't truly aware of. I don't think that makes me incompetant but I'm willing to keep an open mind on most things and I will keep an open mind on the OP!

Just my thoughts!

Cheers

 

[martysparky]

USKEL im not being funny, but everyone one her seems to get hung up over other people wanting to do sparking, its not exactly rocket science, Ive spent years and years gaining qualifiactions I am JIB approved 2319 17th edition 2330 level 3 nvq level 3 and building regs level 3
I haqve no issue in passing knowledge on to antone who wants to know, ask yourself this, is ther any difference between substandard wiring and a substandard wall installed by cowboy builders? in my view the wall is more dangerous as this is more likely to hurt someone by collapsing than 2.5mm being over rated by ohhhh 2 amps where the life may decrease by 20 years, ohh nooooooooooooooooooooo
call the police!!!!!
In my view knowledge is there to be shared and so what if these jeffery's know nowt, then its them whos in the **** if it goes wrong
just concentrate on doing a good job and thats all you can do
It really makes my blood boild when ~I hear people banging on about, ohh he's not part p he cant wire outside lights or isnt competant to test an installation
people in here need to get over themselves and realise although we arfe qualified sparks we are NOT masters of the universe and you cant slate someone for trying to make a living

With you all the way on that one!

Knowledge is power and if the power gets you who's volt is that!

 

[Modernelectric]

Hello, i have read a lot of the comments and all i have to say is, On every single property you enter before commencing work you should be looking at the state of the consumer unit, and the main bonding and the earthing arrangements as regulations now are far different from what they used to be, and on most jobs now i have to upgrade main earths/tails/bonding and rcd's.

You mentioned that 2 sockets had stopped working, but if you havent touched that circuit how has anything stopped working? Sounds like you have got yourself into a pickle!