Problem customer

[eagleeye]

Hi guys I recently posted a message on here regarding a problem I have. Basically i fitted a new kitchen for them and new electrical circuits. RCD board and all. I noticed that the gas and water had no earth connection on them so told the lady and she didnt want me to do it as i would charge her because it wasnt part of my estimate. Also when i put in the new ringmain 2 sockets on the downstairs stopped working. The house needs a rewire as the wiring is in a right mess as are the old fuse boards and this problem would have been sorted out then. She was refusing to pay me for some other extra work that i did so i didnt give her a certificate until she sorted it out. She has now got in touch with the NICEIC who im registered with and they have sent me a letter about it. they want a response by 11th Feb. What do you people think about this?



Regards
Paul

 

[bugsy]

There's anfull lot to be said about the old 5 year apprenticeship

 

[saveloy]

It's not part P thats flawed, Its the way governing bodies offer quick fix courses for a fast buck so that non electrical trades can register under the scheme. What would happen if chippies or painters or bricklayers could do a one day gas safe course for a couple of hundred quid. Lots of propertys blowing up is my guess.

I agree with that. The authorities have got it right with regards to gas. It's illegal for an unregistered person to work on gas end of. Thats how it should be on electrical. I actually wouldn't mind Part P if it was policed properly. But it isn't. No one is ever prosecuted for non notification so it's pointless spouting on about it being illegal to carry out work without Part P. The only law being contravened is a buliding regulation and LABC are supposed to police that and they couldn't give a ----. WTF some of them even take a PIR instead of an EIC, so even they ain't obeying THIER own law.

No the bottom line is every man to his trade. If this chap had installed the kitchen and left the electrics to a time served registered electrician he would not have this problem.

Sorry mate but the reason I went to college 5 years ago and studied electrical installation was because I was fed up with time served electricians mugging my customers and me off. The last one I used was getting a lot of work through me, yet I ended up doing most of his first fix for him. His work wasn't all that either. Until I went to college I didn't realise how many corners he cut - strands of 10mm cut to get cable in MET, cablles just run under kitchen cabinets, no certs issued, no part p registration.
He used to leave back boxes, cable, underfloor heating cable etc for me to install. One job I ran a 10mm cable for the shower from downstairs to the loft and all he did was connect up. Still charged the customer £250 though.
Another sparks I used put a Proteus(cost cutting again)board in for a customer. When I did the bathroom later on, he wired the shower. Last year I went round there as their shower wasn't working. He'd used a non Proteus MCB (no RCD) in the board, Except to get it to fit he'd put it up side down. So when looking at the board it appeared that all the MCBs were on! However the Shower one had accidentally been switched off, but to the customers it looked fine.No bonding either.
Sorry mate but there are good and bad electricians regardless of their background, and how they enterd the industry. If the apprentices who I attended college with (and are serving their time) are anything to go by, then standards are going to plummet in this industry not improve.

 

[bugsy]

So why did'nt you get certification for his work, if it was sub standard why did you pay him and if you were not happy why did.nt you use a registered contractor where by you had some recourse on bad workmanship

 

[dufjax]

So why did'nt you get certification for his work, if it was sub standard why did you pay him and if you were not happy why did.nt you use a registered contractor where by you had some recourse on bad workmanship

Hear, Hear

 

[5-Week-Wonder]

I bet 99% of contractors on here wouldn't check something like insulation resistance when estimating for a CU change. Would they pay for a rewire out of their own pockets if they later found that it wasn't compliant?

Ok, gas and water bonding are fairly easy to visually inspect (usually) but you're just providing an estimate. If you discover problems when you're doing the job there's no way that the customer should expect them to be fixed in the original price.

The circuit should never have been energised if the bonding was missing, so you probably need to go back an fit it at your own expense to aid your defence when you reply to the NIC. I do sympathise with your situation though.

 

[flukey]

this post made very good reading but from where i sit it is pretty clear who is in the wrong.

the op shouldnt be out of his depth as he is registered onto a competent persons scheme and has proved he knows what he is doing

he then priced a job, installed it and energised it with no bonding in place proving he doesnt know what he is doing and even argues the fact leaving the customer to contact his governing body

earthing and bonding is the first thing you should be checking before taking on ANY alterations or additions, so im sorry but i make the customer 100% right

 

[dufjax]

I bet 99% of contractors on here wouldn't check something like insulation resistance when estimating for a CU change. Would they pay for a rewire out of their own pockets if they later found that it wasn't compliant?

Ok, gas and water bonding are fairly easy to visually inspect (usually) but you're just providing an estimate. If you discover problems when you're doing the job there's no way that the customer should expect them to be fixed in the original price.

The circuit should never have been energised if the bonding was missing, so you probably need to go back an fit it at your own expense to aid your defence when you reply to the NIC. I do sympathise with your situation though.

We don’t check IR when estimating because it would mean pulling circuits & the consumer unit apart. Which as it’s only an estimate we haven’t (yet) been contracted or asked to do.

What happens if something goes wrong while testing? You might even find you PL won’t pay up.
My old policy stated something about they would only insure me if I was “getting paid” so wouldn’t cover the above.
We do however do a quick visual check for bonding.

The first thing we do is explain (in simple terms) that we are going to test the installation; we also explain the power will be off for most of the day… Believe you me some it doesn’t dawn on some customers!!
The next thing is testing (Continuity, IR etc) if some things not right we stop, talk to the customer and agree the way forward.
[FONT=&quot]We even have a nice little a4 folded leaflet that explains all this to the customer.



Cheers
Jim


PS oh and Welcome aboard 5 Day [/FONT]

 

[CHRIS66]

NIC guidelines are VERY clear on this matter.

No bonds and the customer should be informed in writing why the work CANNOT go ahead

 

[bugsy]

Visual inspection should take about 10mins if your not sure qualify it in the quote ( or estimate ) simple
no arguments afterwards

 

[saveloy]

So why did'nt you get certification for his work

Dunno you'd have to ask him that. Him not having a test meter may have had something to do with it.

if it was sub standard why did you pay him

I didn't know his work was sub-standard until I trained and learn't the proper way to do things. I didn't pay him, the customer did. I always let the customer deal direct with him. If I'd have known then I wouldn't have reccomended him.

and if you were not happy why did.nt you use a registered contractor where by you had some recourse on bad workmanship

Well again at the time if I'd have known I would have got rid of him. I took him at his word. His work seemed to up to scratch and without being an electrician it is hard to know what is acceptable and what is not, as you well know.

You seem to be blaming me for the fact that this bloke was cutting corners. Fact is it wasn't my responsibility to make sure he complied. It was his.

 

[wattsup]

so then andyb, how has part p stopped dodgy work?

pre part p, anyone doing dodgy work was liable, a cowboy was a a cowboy...in court

Now, the none cowboys have to pay not to be a cowboy, even if they are...no bonding walk away no cert issued, thats bent..but quite legal??
You need a dose of realism

Part p is jobs for the boys, bureaucrats in town halls up and down the country, jobsworths that is all part p is about.

I don't want to dissolution you but lets face it, wiring houses, domestic stuff is dead simple. It is not rocket science.

A real electrician would have no problem wiring a house. Anyone qualified as an electrician should not have to pay protection money to the government, for wiring his friends shower/extension...

Part p is completely bent beyond reason. As pre part p, anyone whome makes a ****** of it is liable in any case

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I bet 99% of contractors on here wouldn't check something like insulation resistance when estimating for a CU change. Would they pay for a rewire out of their own pockets if they later found that it wasn't compliant?

Ok, gas and water bonding are fairly easy to visually inspect (usually) but you're just providing an estimate. If you discover problems when you're doing the job there's no way that the customer should expect them to be fixed in the original price.

The circuit should never have been energised if the bonding was missing, so you probably need to go back an fit it at your own expense to aid your defence when you reply to the NIC. I do sympathise with your situation though.

We always check main bonding prior to estimating ,but the estimate the customer recieves clearly states that the existing installation will be tested after a CU change and any faults found will be at extra cost. Even if you do an IR test prior to estimating there may be problems with ring continuity...r1r2 readings etc....it simply isnt practical to ensure the installation is completely sound purely for the purpose of estimating a job you might not even get.

 

[ChristianG]

Interesting one this, what if the tt earth rod and cable had been removed?

Would of someone quoting checked for the main earth?

I have come across a job where the old fella had removed the earth rod and cable so he could build his nice porch......




Needless to say it was replaced.

 

[flukey]

if its not visible when you estimate then you have to assume its NOT there and advise accordingly.

we all know where the earthing and bonding should be and if its not within these parameters then expect the worst and advise the customer BEFORE any work is undertaken

 

[andyb]

so then andyb, how has part p stopped dodgy work?

pre part p, anyone doing dodgy work was liable, a cowboy was a a cowboy...in court

Now, the none cowboys have to pay not to be a cowboy, even if they are...no bonding walk away no cert issued, thats bent..but quite legal??
You need a dose of realism

Part p is jobs for the boys, bureaucrats in town halls up and down the country, jobsworths that is all part p is about.

I don't want to dissolution you but lets face it, wiring houses, domestic stuff is dead simple. It is not rocket science.

A real electrician would have no problem wiring a house. Anyone qualified as an electrician should not have to pay protection money to the government, for wiring his friends shower/extension...

Part p is completely bent beyond reason. As pre part p, anyone whome makes a ****** of it is liable in any case

I've never said on this or any post that part p stops dodgy work, same as corgie does not stop dodgy work, having the general medical council council does not stop dodgy medical practices, fensa does not stop dodgy double glazing, the charted institute of accountants does not stop dodgy accountancy practice, I could go on and on. Mabey nothing should be regulated.

It's you that needs the dose of realism, wiring houses may not be rocket science but it seems to be beyod the wit of many 'qualified electricians' on this forum judging by some of the questions posted on this site, including this thred.

You'r simply wrong that pre part p anyone doing dodgy work was liable, this is a clasic example. The person carrying out this work could not of been prosecuted and was breaking no law. Now with part p if he is not full scope which is what I suspect, he is liable for prosecution. Even if he is full scope he can be thrown out of the niceic. Just because there are not enough prosecutions dos'nt make the idea of part p wrong

You talk about a real electrician, would you care to define what you mean by that, and you mention protection money to the goverment, how does money go into goverment coffers with part p.
I know where money has gone since part p and thats into my pocket. If you are not benefiting from part p with extra work then i think you must be doing something wrong.