G
Geordie Spark
I cannot believe we have yet another thread on this done-to-death subject. There must be dozens of them on here by now.
G
Geordie Spark
Just Copy and Paste replies to these endlessly repeating threads cos I'm LAZY.
E
Edd
we are close to page 4 of a topic thats been done to death, lets see if we can find anything new...ahhh No, oh well i was hoping for somthing...
Your lucky you got to your older days working live!
G
Guest111
why? people do it every day? how dou you think they work on service cables?
G
Geordie Spark
It has NOTHING to do with being "lucky" ............ it has EVERYTHING to do with skill and competence - something that's sadly lacking in today's world as has been shown time and again on this forum.
G
grahamgas
Had my elecsa assessment a few weeks ago, and I showed the guy a new cu in my own house. He asked the question about whther to pull or not. I told him straight, fuse was pulled. He said that is what he would do. Even got me a seal from the car to put back on the carrier.
2
27_craig
If you need to change a consumer unit with no isolation switch then pull the fuse! It's for your own safety at the end of the day, I've pulled hundreds of them without a thought about it being illegal, it's b****cks!! Just saying.
amlu
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Yeah, let them lock up all the sparks, come and get me, pulled two fuses this week, dont fancy working live on 100a tails.
G
Guest55
valid point.
but if the seals fell off while you were looking at it, would you replace after you've finished?
G
Guest55
nope , i've spent most of career cutting them off , im not about to start refittng them lol.
You can buy the wire and the lead crimps from ebay for around a fiver.......or so a I was told.....
Jay
Jay
R
Rampantchilli
The trouble is, you CAN be prosecuted for breach of health and safety regs.
firstly,
most of us do not have the required PPE to perform the job, ie the gloves, which the correct ones are ridiculously thick rubber, which need to be replaced every 6 months.
secondly
the equipment you are working on, ie the cutout, is governed under the ESQC regs, not bs 7671, so for most of us, we have NOT had the relevant training.
these are requirements of the HSE, to be able to carry out the work, along with a relevant certificate, in date.
i have heard of a contractor being fined 16k for breach of H&S, NOT for theft of electricity.
the electricity safety council did badger the suppliers to provide a reasonable service to fit isolators within short time scales, this generally is available, at a cost of course, and within 10working days.
with that said, i HAVE NEVER worked on live tails, and I have had the relevant training, being an ex Electricty Company employee.
firstly,
most of us do not have the required PPE to perform the job, ie the gloves, which the correct ones are ridiculously thick rubber, which need to be replaced every 6 months.
secondly
the equipment you are working on, ie the cutout, is governed under the ESQC regs, not bs 7671, so for most of us, we have NOT had the relevant training.
these are requirements of the HSE, to be able to carry out the work, along with a relevant certificate, in date.
i have heard of a contractor being fined 16k for breach of H&S, NOT for theft of electricity.
the electricity safety council did badger the suppliers to provide a reasonable service to fit isolators within short time scales, this generally is available, at a cost of course, and within 10working days.
with that said, i HAVE NEVER worked on live tails, and I have had the relevant training, being an ex Electricty Company employee.
P
Piratepete
Yes.
Resealing the fuse doesn't imply that it was sealed when you arrived (it often isn't anyway!). But if you leave it unsealed, you're leaving the installation in a dangerous state. - ie. Joe Public and his kiddies can pull the fuse (without using a tool) and cause all sorts of nasties such as death and/or explosions!
:sailor:
Pete
K
KAS1
Put a cable tie round it............
P
Piratepete
Round what? Don't think you can!
T
tbs1983
Being a street light sparky for my local authority I had to do a 2 day course at Scottish Power which included a quite lengthy practical exam, then return for a 2hr interview with their h&s guy to prove i am competent to remove their fuses in our street light equipment. This gave me Erg39 authority from SP. unfortunately this only covers me for unmetered equipment, meaning I still have to break the law everytime i change a domestic DB !!! In fairness though they showed us some horrible pics of peoples hands etc after flash burns when they had replaced a fuse under fault conditions, potentially 16,000A does make me think twice !!!
zap
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check out this video of hot washing. 'Hot-Washing' the Insulators of a 500,000 Volt Power Line! - YouTube
spraying PURE water to remove bird's poo from 500,000V pylons.
P
PEM
I'd like to see hard evidence of actual prosecution even with smart meters.
Any prosecution for cutting tags if it could be proved would fail against the fundamental principle in European Law of protecting human life and European Law overwrites state law and certainly rules and regs from suppliers.
One guy has stated your far more likely to be prosecuted by the HSE for working live when there is an easy means of safe isolation. This is very true.
So in summary work safe!
Regards
Any prosecution for cutting tags if it could be proved would fail against the fundamental principle in European Law of protecting human life and European Law overwrites state law and certainly rules and regs from suppliers.
One guy has stated your far more likely to be prosecuted by the HSE for working live when there is an easy means of safe isolation. This is very true.
So in summary work safe!
Regards
Out of interest, why aren't Isolators fitted as standard, to prevent this problem and never ending debate ?
Surely it would be easier and safer for all, Sparks and householders if the supply could be isolated at the flick of a switch to allow work to be carried out safely, or to isolate supply in emergency situations
Surely it would be easier and safer for all, Sparks and householders if the supply could be isolated at the flick of a switch to allow work to be carried out safely, or to isolate supply in emergency situations
H
Heisenberg
In case you haven't already realised, the 'Beancounters' have taken over most aspects of modern life. Therefore, anything that costs more than they can get away with will be avoided like the plague.
Couple that with severe myopia and you've got the situation we presently have. This is typified, as someone has said earlier, by the DNOs eschewing the opportunity to have an isolation facility incorporated in smart meters. Truly bonkers :shout:
Thankfully I operate in an SSE area where they hand out seals. Thank heavens for common sense, they realised they were over stretched some time ago and that has put an end to the issue. It just needs sorting out everywhere else now. I did some very risky live work in the past, I'm glad those days are over.
P
PEM
Just out of interest does anyone actually know of an actual prosecution or is it just industry rumour?
I've even heard a sparks say he tells the client to put the tags because he can't work if they're on. Industry does appear to be going mad!
I've even heard a sparks say he tells the client to put the tags because he can't work if they're on. Industry does appear to be going mad!
imago
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People do get very worked up about this subject, and for no good reason. There are a lot of rumours, guesses and plain old BS running about this. It comes down to two things, the DNOs won't get involved because it will cost them, so the sparky working on the installation must deal with the situation.
There are two ways to do that:-
1) Spend ages on the phone talking to Mr or Mrs Don't-know, after sometime you may get passed through to Mr or Mrs Don't-care. If you persevere and resist the temptation to issue death threats or launch the phone into orbit you may get an appointment booked for some weeks hence.
2) Cut the seals off if they are present and look at the fuse carrier. Using your judgement and experience* decide if it's safe to pull.
a)If it is pull all fuses, switch off MCBs, RCDs and the main switch. Then get your gloves on and a face sheild(not compulsory, but definately a good idea) pull the fuse, do the work(including a DP isolator if you want to be nice to future sparks), replace the fuse fit new seals, and get on with your life.
b) If it looks insecure, cracked, crumbly or dodgy contact the DNOs emergency line and tell them that there's a burning smell coming from the fuse/service head. When they turn up to sort that out ask them to fit a DP isolator which you just happen to have handy.
* If you don't have the knowledge or experience to judge the fuse condition don't cut the seals. Your prize for showing good sense will be in two parts. Firstly you potentially get to live a bit longer and/or avoid looking like Freddy Kruger for the rest of your life. Secondly you get to experience the joys of a telephone conversation with a DNO customer 'help' line.
I am quite happy to state on an open forum that I have removed DNO seals and fuses, and that I will continue to do so. I always fit new seals when I'm done, and I always contact the DNO if the carrier looks like it's going to give trouble. If any DNO wishes to challenge my decision to save them money, and avoid working live then kiss my, er, I mean, please feel free to contact me with a court date if you can find a solicitor stupid enough to challenge HASAW and ESR along with European law, and common sense.
There are two ways to do that:-
1) Spend ages on the phone talking to Mr or Mrs Don't-know, after sometime you may get passed through to Mr or Mrs Don't-care. If you persevere and resist the temptation to issue death threats or launch the phone into orbit you may get an appointment booked for some weeks hence.
2) Cut the seals off if they are present and look at the fuse carrier. Using your judgement and experience* decide if it's safe to pull.
a)If it is pull all fuses, switch off MCBs, RCDs and the main switch. Then get your gloves on and a face sheild(not compulsory, but definately a good idea) pull the fuse, do the work(including a DP isolator if you want to be nice to future sparks), replace the fuse fit new seals, and get on with your life.
b) If it looks insecure, cracked, crumbly or dodgy contact the DNOs emergency line and tell them that there's a burning smell coming from the fuse/service head. When they turn up to sort that out ask them to fit a DP isolator which you just happen to have handy.
* If you don't have the knowledge or experience to judge the fuse condition don't cut the seals. Your prize for showing good sense will be in two parts. Firstly you potentially get to live a bit longer and/or avoid looking like Freddy Kruger for the rest of your life. Secondly you get to experience the joys of a telephone conversation with a DNO customer 'help' line.
I am quite happy to state on an open forum that I have removed DNO seals and fuses, and that I will continue to do so. I always fit new seals when I'm done, and I always contact the DNO if the carrier looks like it's going to give trouble. If any DNO wishes to challenge my decision to save them money, and avoid working live then kiss my, er, I mean, please feel free to contact me with a court date if you can find a solicitor stupid enough to challenge HASAW and ESR along with European law, and common sense.
P
PEM
Imago
Excellent summary of the situation and total common sense.
Excellent summary of the situation and total common sense.
G
Geordie Spark
P
PEM
Now that's a pragmatic talking!
they know how much electricity is bein used so they wont mind if there logs tally up
Cutting fuse seals is an everyday occurance. Meter fitters expect it, suppliers expect it, and sparks see it as their place to be doing it. Quite right too.
If you really wanna get someone's knickers in a bunch though, cut the meter seals. I really don't ever do it.
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