Putting a spur on an old ring

[pushrod]

If you want to put a spur on a socket that is part of a ring that is connected to an old CU with no rcd protection would it be ok to surface mount inside some mini trunking?
If you are putting just one double socket on the spur does it need to be fused? and if it was two double sockets you would need it to be fused? There's only about 5 double sockets on the whole ring and it has a 32A mcb. cheers.

 

[WayneL]

Sorry to burst your bubble, dkent5, but your answer doesn't fulfill

any of the current regs

All socket outlets now require RCD protection, regardless of

installation method!!

RCDs are installed for additional protection against

electric shock, not as a means of meeting disconnection times -

unless, of course, you're working on a TT system, where this can be

done.

 

[irishsailor]

I believe if you extend the circuit you RCD protect addition, you could consider an RCD socket

Irish

 

[Steve D]

Just to throw something else into the ring, I'm currently reading GN3 Insp & Testing for an exam on wednesday.

In the 'Minor Works' section it discusses essential tests to be carried out after the alteration and the precise example they give is where a socket outlet is added to an existing circuit.

It says "(If the circuit is protected by an RCD) verify the effectiveness of the RCD."

It therefore implies that a socket circuit might not necessarily be protected by an rcd.

 

[Des 56]

Just to throw something else into the ring, I'm currently reading GN3 Insp & Testing for an exam on wednesday.

In the 'Minor Works' section it discusses essential tests to be carried out after the alteration and the precise example they give is where a socket outlet is added to an existing circuit.

It says "(If the circuit is protected by an RCD) verify the effectiveness of the RCD."

It therefore implies that a socket circuit might not necessarily be protected by an rcd.

It may be a specifically labelled socket for a fridge or such with no rcd protection

It may be under supervision of a skilled/instructed person
The implication that you state would not then apply

 

[Steve D]

It may be a specifically labelled socket for a fridge or such with no rcd protection

It may be under supervision of a skilled/instructed person
The implication that you state would not then apply

Yes of course, it's been a long week !

 

[Steve D]

I would be really interested to hear what they have to say about the consumer who wants to improve their installation in stages. eg put a modern safer CU in but not upgrade the lighting circuit even though it does not have an earth a la 14th or 15 th regs; or improve a ring circuit to prevent trailing leads but not rcd protect it because their CU is is old and in a restricted space. I think commonsense would say that if you are extending a circuit you would check the safety of the whole circuit and not just the correctness of the bit you are adding, but to say the whole circuit now has to comply with 17th ed regs is a nonsense! (if for example it was rcd protected but just in the old colours!). Just because an installation does not match bs 7671:2008 it does not mean it is unsafe.
The other thing is that it is the EWA 1989? and the HaSaW act that are statutory, the wiring regs are only guidelines to help installers meet those acts. If the "law" is going to say you should walk away from a job that could make an improvement to an installation because the client can not afford to improve the whole installation then the "law" is an --- (as they say) and should be changed.

I went to the seminar yesterday and this sort of question with the new CU came up.
When fitting a consumer unit then you need to ensure that all circuits comply with current regs. In addition, when you certify it, the certificate only lets you certify that it complies with a single version of BS7671. There is no way of saying that one section of the installation complies with 2004 regs and the other complies to 2008 regs. We are therefore obliged to state that the full installation (or at least the circuits that we have been working on) comply with 17th ed.

You mention the old colours - existing wiring can remain as old colours (as long as you display the 'wiring in 2 colours' label at or near the origin), it's not saying that they need replacing or resheathing for new colours.

I accept that the installation may have been working and safe to 15th ed regs for many years, but when you fill in a certificate then it's your responsibility as the duty hold to certify that the circuit complies with current regs.

Unfortunately they are therefore saying that if the customer doesn't want an rcd fitting then we need to walk away - A letter in writing to the customer to recommend an rcd being fitted or a disclaimer in the 'departures' section will not legally cover us.

The fact is, the regs can be cited in a court of law (in defence as well as prosecution) and there is no way around it.

Unfortunately, we all know that if we do walk away from a job like this then Dodgy Bob down the road will happily take on the job.

 

[pushrod]

I went to the seminar yesterday and this sort of question with the new CU came up.
When fitting a consumer unit then you need to ensure that all circuits comply with current regs. In addition, when you certify it, the certificate only lets you certify that it complies with a single version of BS7671. There is no way of saying that one section of the installation complies with 2004 regs and the other complies to 2008 regs. We are therefore obliged to state that the full installation (or at least the circuits that we have been working on) comply with 17th ed.

You mention the old colours - existing wiring can remain as old colours (as long as you display the 'wiring in 2 colours' label at or near the origin), it's not saying that they need replacing or resheathing for new colours.

I accept that the installation may have been working and safe to 15th ed regs for many years, but when you fill in a certificate then it's your responsibility as the duty hold to certify that the circuit complies with current regs.

Unfortunately they are therefore saying that if the customer doesn't want an rcd fitting then we need to walk away - A letter in writing to the customer to recommend an rcd being fitted or a disclaimer in the 'departures' section will not legally cover us.

The fact is, the regs can be cited in a court of law (in defence as well as prosecution) and there is no way around it.

Unfortunately, we all know that if we do walk away from a job like this then Dodgy Bob down the road will happily take on the job.

Thanks for the update on what the "law" is Steve. I just can't help but think this is another example of poorly thought out legislation that far from helping bona fide electricians actually works against them, encouraging joe public to go with "dodgy bob" . Work by an experienced and qualified electrician that improves an installation and informs the client in writing as to what further improvements are needed has got to be better than nothing at all, or work by an unqualified inexperienced handyman.

Are there no organisations / unions that can lobby for common sense.

If the government want to improve the quality of electrical work they could just say no sale of certain electrical items unless you show a card proving you are an electrician. Not hard to do, afterall it works for the sale of alcohol to young people.

 

[COLLY]

better to comlpy with regs now cause if the house is ever tested the cu will have to be changed anyway

 

[flukey]

better to comlpy with regs now cause if the house is ever tested the cu will have to be changed anyway

why is that then colly carrying out a periodic doesnt mean a new cu would be needed. it may receive a comment but would be fine as is

 

[TimW]

I have a fused spur connected directly to the consumer unit. That fused spur feeds two double 13A socket outlets and one single 13A socket outlet. Is this legal? What is the limit to the number of socket outlets that may be connected to a fused spur?

Many yhrnks
Tim

 

[Andywyatt]

better to comlpy with regs now cause if the house is ever tested the cu will have to be changed anyway

Surely only if the client requires the installation to be 17th compliant after all you have no legal right to force compliance of an older installation.

 

[electricAl]

I have a fused spur connected directly to the consumer unit. That fused spur feeds two double 13A socket outlets and one single 13A socket outlet. Is this legal? What is the limit to the number of socket outlets that may be connected to a fused spur?

Many yhrnks
Tim

In itself there`s nothing wrong with spurring off a Ring Final Circuit at the Consumer Unit. If it`s via an FCU then it may supply an indefinate number of socket outlets, as that entire spur is protected by the 13amp fuse. So, if the total loading on that spur is assessed as being unlikely to draw more than 13 amps then AOK. It could even be wired in 1.5mm T&E. Still ok in theory. However, depending on the anticipated use, the installer possibly could be fairly accused of poor design, but not unsafe work.