Radial Circuit Cable Length

[Master Mech]

Hello all,

Just had an electrician wire in a radial circuit in my house to my loft as I use the space for my home theatre equipment & wanted a dedicated circuit for the equipment as its consists of quite a few power hungry amps & devices.

He has wired the radial in 4.0mm2 twin & earth cable connected to a 32 amp breaker, normally I gather this would not be an issue & is common place in installations.

The problem I can see is the total length of the cable from the consumer unit to the equipment in the loft is 35 meters & after doing a little research it seems that voltage drop is going to be an issue with a cable of this length.

After using a calculator online for voltage drop the conductor size required for a 6.0mm2 to be below the 5% maximum voltage drop stated in the regulations.

That calculation is for a cable that has been surface clipped which is correct for the length of the run in the loft which is 22 meters long.

The length of the run going along & up the side of the house to reach the loft is 13 meters long & is inside 25mm conduit along with a 2.5mm2 & 1.0mm2 cable for other circuits in the house.

So am I correct in saying that using a 32 amp breaker in this situation is not appropriate & a 20 amp breaker would be the correct choice?

Alternatively the cable needs to be changed to a 6.0mm2 cable to be able use a 32 amp breaker to protect the circuit?

 

[Taylortwocities]

A radial circuit run in 4mm T&E cable and protected by a 32amp MCB is a standards circuit arrangement.

What is the total load of your “power hungry” devices? I can’t imagine that they come anywhere near 32amp.

 

[Master Mech]

A radial circuit run in 4mm T&E cable and protected by a 32amp MCB is a standards circuit arrangement.

What is the total load of your “power hungry” devices? I can’t imagine that they come anywhere near 32amp.

I will be totally honest I do not know what the total load is, I looked up all the manufacturer specs for all my equipment & I got some crazy figure like 80 amps when I added them all together so I presume these published figures are theoretical maximums but are not much use in the real world?

What is the best way to work out what my total load is?

If the voltage drop is a non issue is there any issues with the current carrying capacity of the cable due to it being in conduit & also with other cables?

 

[James]

Volt drop will not reduce by putting in a 20A breaker.

Have you used a part p registered electrician?

If so you will get or have already got a certificate that confirms compliance with the regs.

 

[Wilko]

Hi MM - You are correct that if a bigger cable was used then less voltage would be dropped for any given load in accord with Ohm’s Law, but it’s unlikely to be something that affects the use you propose. If you post up an equipment list I’m sure load estimates will be forthcoming.

 

[Burtones]

If you post up an equipment list I’m sure load estimates will be forthcoming.

That will be interesting. I would be surprised if the total load on the circuit (and therefore assumed design current) was anywhere near high enough to exceed max volt drop requirements.

Also how sure are you on the length of circuit? A quick calc shows that even if the design current was 32A you could run approx. 30m in 4mm before exceeding volt drop.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I will be totally honest I do not know what the total load is, I looked up all the manufacturer specs for all my equipment & I got some crazy figure like 80 amps

I rather think you are misunderstanding of misreading the amount of MAINS current that the devices require.
A 200 watt audio amplifier at full whack won’t pull much more current than a 60watt light bulb.
Have a look at the rating information on the back of your devices.

 

[westward10]

4mm T&E is undersized for a 32A protective device if it is contained in conduit.

 

[telectrix]

I will be totally honest I do not know what the total load is, I looked up all the manufacturer specs for all my equipment & I got some crazy figure like 80 amps when I added them all together so I presume these published figures are theoretical maximums but are not much use in the real world?

What is the best way to work out what my total load is?

If the voltage drop is a non issue is there any issues with the current carrying capacity of the cable due to it being in conduit & also with other cables?

what yous running up there, a recording studio or a pirate radio station. ?

remember it well. on my old valve radio.long before FM.

 

[Burtones]

4mm T&E is undersized for a 32A protective device if it is contained in conduit.

OP- is it conduit or plastic mini trunking? Haven't looked at the tables so not sure if it makes a difference to derating factor

 

[pirate]

Arr, that takes me back, me hearties...thanks Tel!

 

[Wilko]

4mm T&E is undersized for a 32A protective device if it is contained in conduit.

I was trying not to mention the War .

 

[Master Mech]

Hi MM - You are correct that if a bigger cable was used then less voltage would be dropped for any given load in accord with Ohm’s Law, but it’s unlikely to be something that affects the use you propose. If you post up an equipment list I’m sure load estimates will be forthcoming.

what yous running up there, a recording studio or a pirate radio station. ?

remember it well. on my old valve radio.long before FM.

I rather think you are misunderstanding of misreading the amount of MAINS current that the devices require.
A 200 watt audio amplifier at full whack won’t pull much more current than a 60watt light bulb.
Have a look at the rating information on the back of your devices.

There is quite a few pieces up there as this is a full fledged home theatre so here goes.

1. Arcam AVR30 Processor / Amplifier

2. Emotiva XPA-7 Amplifier - x2

3. Behringer NX6000 Amplifier - x3

4. Behringer NX3000 Amplifier

5. Buttkicker BKA1000-N Amplifier

6. Epson EH-TW9300 Projector

7. Xbox One X

8. Virgin Media V6 Box

9. Phillips Hue

10. Netgear GS116UK Network Switch

11. Netgear R7800 Network Router

12. MiniDSP 2X4 HD - X2

13. HDFury Vertex

That will be interesting. I would be surprised if the total load on the circuit (and therefore assumed design current) was anywhere near high enough to exceed max volt drop requirements.

Also how sure are you on the length of circuit? A quick calc shows that even if the design current was 32A you could run approx. 30m in 4mm before exceeding volt drop.

The total length of the cable is 35 meters but as you say I would need to be using 32 amps to start running into issues with voltage drop so I now need to now workout what my total load is but as all of you say it is highly unlikely I am going to be anywhere near 32 amps.

OP- is it conduit or plastic mini trunking? Haven't looked at the tables so not sure if it makes a difference to derating factor

Is it black plastic conduit in 25mm, it looks like this stuff.

https://www.toolstation.com/25mm-heavy-duty-pvc-round-conduit/p66251

4mm T&E is undersized for a 32A protective device if it is contained in conduit.

Thank you for that information, it seems this is my issue rather than voltage drop at this point from all the information I have received here.

Many thanks to all of you for your time & help, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Master Mech]

@westward10 Forgot to ask, do you know if the current carrying capacity of the cable is further de-rated due to the two other cables also running in the conduit along with it?

 

[Wilko]

Hi MM - so coool stuff there

Power wise, I just looked at item 3, the Behringer NX6000 Amplifier of which you’ve got 3. I was stunned to see the spec says ea of these has 2 by 3kW amps. Yep 18kW. Aghhh. Then I looked at the power cable, it’s a plug. And it’s labelled 820W each. So probably closer to 2.4kW rather than 12kW + some efficiency factor. But it does seem like you’re going to need some air handling plant up there.

 

[pc1966]

Realistically if you have 6kW sustained power driving speakers up there you are going to be deaf in seconds and/or subject to a police action.

I doubt you will be drawing much more than a couple of kW average and nothing like the limit for a 32A circuit.

 

[Avo Mk8]

What is the best way to work out what my total load is?

By looking up the manufacturers specifications, but unfortunately they're not always clear.

My quick sums predict about 16A with everything on and playing. Obviously the current will go up with the volume controls, but I think you would have difficulty exceeding say 25A while in the same room!
The Behringer NX6000 Amplifier spec says the avarage mains power consumption using 4 ohm speakers is typically 620 watts, which equates to approx 2.6A, so for three of them, say 8A with them all running. The other amplifiers are mostly lower power, so allow say 2A each. The projector is 355Watts, which equates to about 1.5A. Items 8 onwards on your list probably don't consume more than an amp all combined.

If you have access to a clamp ammeter it would be interesting to hear the result and see how way out I am!

My personal opinion is that the 4mm cable you've had installed is perfectly adequate for the use you describe. I'll leave it to others to discuss what the derating implications are, if any.

 

[Spoon]

@westward10 Forgot to ask, do you know if the current carrying capacity of the cable is further de-rated due to the two other cables also running in the conduit along with it?

You mention that there is a 2.5mm & 1.0mm cable also in the conduit.
Grouping factor should be looked at, depending on what these cables feed.
"If, due to known operating conditions, a cable is expected to carry not more than 30 % of its grouped rating, it may be ignored for the purpose of obtaining the rating factor for the rest of the group."

 

[loz2754]

Power consumption for audio power amps is usually 1/8 of the output wattage, with the amps running clean with light clipping.

 

[Master Mech]

Hi MM - so coool stuff there

Power wise, I just looked at item 3, the Behringer NX6000 Amplifier of which you’ve got 3. I was stunned to see the spec says ea of these has 2 by 3kW amps. Yep 18kW. Aghhh. Then I looked at the power cable, it’s a plug. And it’s labelled 820W each. So probably closer to 2.4kW rather than 12kW + some efficiency factor. But it does seem like you’re going to need some air handling plant up there.

View attachment 62164

Yes really confusing & misleading when you are trying to work this kind of stuff out.

Realistically if you have 6kW sustained power driving speakers up there you are going to be deaf in seconds and/or subject to a police action.

I doubt you will be drawing much more than a couple of kW average and nothing like the limit for a 32A circuit.

The Behringer's are powering 6 18" subwoofers each using dual voice coils totaling four ohms each. They so go infrsonic which literally shakes the room which is all part of the experience so its not just about what you can hear but what you can feel.

By looking up the manufacturers specifications, but unfortunately they're not always clear.

My quick sums predict about 16A with everything on and playing. Obviously the current will go up with the volume controls, but I think you would have difficulty exceeding say 25A while in the same room!
The Behringer NX6000 Amplifier spec says the avarage mains power consumption using 4 ohm speakers is typically 620 watts, which equates to approx 2.6A, so for three of them, say 8A with them all running. The other amplifiers are mostly lower power, so allow say 2A each. The projector is 355Watts, which equates to about 1.5A. Items 8 onwards on your list probably don't consume more than an amp all combined.

If you have access to a clamp ammeter it would be interesting to hear the result and see how way out I am!

My personal opinion is that the 4mm cable you've had installed is perfectly adequate for the use you describe. I'll leave it to others to discuss what the derating implications are, if any.

Yes I do own an amp clamp & I would love to see what all this gear is pulling when everything is in full force.

Going to be a little difficult due to the load being very transient & if my meter can refresh fast enough to catch the most demanding peaks.

Things like explosions & gun shots for example occur for a second or less but really push the system to the limit.

You mention that there is a 2.5mm & 1.0mm cable also in the conduit.
Grouping factor should be looked at, depending on what these cables feed.
"If, due to known operating conditions, a cable is expected to carry not more than 30 % of its grouped rating, it may be ignored for the purpose of obtaining the rating factor for the rest of the group."

The 2.5mm2 cable is for a radial circuit in the house for the hallway & dining room sockets consisting of four two gang sockets in total.

The 1.0mm2 cable is for a lighting circuit covering four rooms upstairs.

But I presume from what has been stated in this thread that running a 4.0mm2 cable in conduit de-rates the current carrying capacity to 30 amps regardless of the other cables it is grouped with so a 32 amp MCB is not subtitle in this scenario?

 

[westward10]

No it shouldn't be on a 32A protective device.

 

[pirate]

I wonder if this system sounds as good as my Sony Walkman...

 

[Master Mech]

No it shouldn't be on a 32A protective device.

Many thanks for the confirmation, I did ask him to put a 20 amp MCB in instead but he was adamant that there was nothing wrong with using a 32 amp MCB & when asked about the cable running in conduit he said those are guidelines only & not rules.

Also because not all of the run was in conduit these "guidelines" do not apply.

Am I correct in saying that this is not the case?

 

[westward10]

Many thanks for the confirmation, I did ask him to put a 20 amp MCB in instead be he was adamant that there was nothing wrong with using a 32 amp MCB & when asked about the cable running in conduit he said those are guidelines only & not rules.

Also because not all of the run was in conduit these "guidelines" do not apply.

Am I correct in saying that this is not the case?

He is incorrect.

 

[loz2754]

He is incorrect.

He is incorrect. We cannot pick and choose which regulations we want to comply with or not. The cable rating for 4mm2 in conduit is at best 30 amps. If grouping is also a factor then it's even less.
So a 20 or 25 amp MCB is needed.

 

[Master Mech]

He is incorrect.

He is incorrect. We cannot pick and choose which regulations we want to comply with or not. The cable rating for 4mm2 in conduit is at best 30 amps. If grouping is also a factor then it's even less.
So a 20 or 25 amp MCB is needed.

Cannot thank you all enough for your time & clear concise information you have provided.

I can now in confidence get the electrician back to install a 20 amp MCB.

My Wylex consumer unit has NSB model MCB's installed which I gather are no longer manufactured by Wylex.

The current generation MCB's that Wylex manufacture the NHX range does not fit into my consumer unit as you cannot reinstall the front cover due to the new range not lining up with the hole in the front cover that the MCB's stick through.

I see from a quick Google that Wylex did manufacture a 25 amp NSB MCB but they seem to be are rare as hens teeth.

I guess we will just have to install a 20 amp & see how we go.

Thanks again

Adam

 

[westward10]

I have never seen a 25A NHB device however they do seem to have existed. NHX devices are not compatible with NSB enclosures.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Audio amps really do not use anything like the nameplate power rating under all normal operating conditions, as mentioned above. If they did, and much of the power was converted into sound, you would be completely deaf and your Buttkicker would cause bits of your house to disintegrate. Thankfully the transducers are very inefficient, so most of the power is converted into heat. If your amps used nameplate consumption, the speaker cabinets would catch fire.

Typical audio program material is, as you are aware, very peaky, with significant consumption only going on for one or two percent of the time. You mention not being able to measure the instantaneous peak current with a clamp meter; if the peaks are too short to measure, they are too short to have any significant heating effect on the cables (or tripping effect on the MCB). With linear amplifiers the voltage drop incurred by the peak loading is important as it can cause the internal DC rails to sag, but with wide-range input Class-D (switched-mode) amps it is immaterial as they will work right down to 120V i.e. even 50% drop won't affect their operation. What matters to the cable and circuit rating is the average over the thermal time-constant of the OCPD and cable, and the figures can be surprisingly low.

Examples:
Quad 520 (normal linear HiFi amp) playing into KEF Concertos, excessive volume for normal listening at my workbench, audible from across the car park. Average consumption 0.3A. Yes, one third of an amp.

University rag week procession sound float. Basically a 40-foot artic with the combined mobile sound systems of three major universities' ents departments lined up along the side, probably 12 or more 18" subs. Attracted a police intervention within 5 minutes of being tested at 'low volume.' Amp racks included four Amcron Macro-Tech 2401s, probably six Yamaha 300+300W amps etc. Idling 12A, workable levels 18A, instantaneous peak about 30A (We reckoned to get away with a 2.5kW genny but the voltage regulation wasn't good enough because of the low power factor of an audio amp idling, I think we used a 5kW in the end)

These examples refer to linear amps. Class-D amps are significantly more efficient, and have higher power factor, so will use less current for a given SPL. I too will be interested to hear what kind of current you end up using...

 

[DPG]

Mmmm KEF Concertos - B139 bass driver. Lovely.

I had some pro 9TL hand built transmission line speakers a few years ago with those in. Sounded amazing.

 

[Master Mech]

Whilst he was installing the radial circuit that I created this thread about he also rewired one of the lighting circuits as there was no earthing due to the wiring being part of the installation when the house was built in the 50's.

I would also like your opinions on how this was done, I guess I would be best to create another thread to talk about this?

If so what forum would be best to post this subject in?

Thanks

Adam

 

[westward10]

Just put it in the Electrical Forum.