rcd protection for power circuits

ample current · Jul 7, 2012

When did it become a reg to have rcd's on socket outlet circuit, was it the 17th or was it the 16th?
Also if you were altering a single power circuit by adding a couple of outlets and moving a couple on the same circiut, do you have to RCD protect the circuit you altered even though there are 4 other power circiuts in the property or is it a case of "no worse than before"

kingeri · Jul 7, 2012

Hiya, it became a requirement in the 17th to RCD protect socket outlets for general use by ordinary folk. To bring us in line with EU! If you add to a circuit then you must ensure it is up to the current regs, including RCD.

RogertheBodger · Jul 7, 2012

If I remember rightly it was a requirement of the 16th. to RCD sockets that were capable of supplying equipment for use outdoors, or words to that effect

Barry Rathbone · Jul 7, 2012

But this brings in other thoughts surely.

You install a new ring radial which HAS to be RCD protected old board can't get RCD's for ..hmm new board or do like they used to do and fit "another box with an rcd in" then another then another.
£40-60 job to £200-400 job, cant you just do the £40,yes of course but you have no room!

Ok i'll leave, then tom,dick or harry steps in for £25 and adds them anyway... sad but true..

Octopus · Jul 7, 2012

If you read the installation instructions for most showers they say install with RCD protection so I'd say installing it and moving it both requires an RCD and notification too.

Guitarist · Jul 7, 2012

Unfortunately Barry, there will always be people who come in and offer a cheaper job. Some will take it and some will go with the "proper, safe" way of doing it. Up to you to make sure you make the customer aware that what you propose is a regs requirement and that someone may come in with a cheaper quote which may not be to the same standard as your install.

Deleted member 26818 · Jul 7, 2012

ample current said:
When did it become a reg to have rcd's on socket outlet circuit, was it the 17th or was it the 16th?
Also if you were altering a single power circuit by adding a couple of outlets and moving a couple on the same circiut, do you have to RCD protect the circuit you altered even though there are 4 other power circiuts in the property or is it a case of "no worse than before"

Never.
No.
There has never been, nor is there now a requirement to protect socket-outlet circuits with an RCD, unless the circuit is in or part of a special location.
You are required to provide RCD protection for the new socket-outlets, if they are for general use by ordinary persons.
If they were for instance to be used for a washing machine and tumble dryer, they would not require RCD protection.

Guitarist · Jul 7, 2012

spinlondon said:
Never.
No.
There has never been, nor is there now a requirement to protect socket-outlet circuits with an RCD, unless the circuit is in or part of a special location.
You are required to provide RCD protection for the new socket-outlets, if they are for general use by ordinary persons.
If they were for instance to be used for a washing machine and tumble dryer, they would not require RCD protection.

I think you are sending out the wrong signal here. Be very careful what you advise on a public forum...

Barry Rathbone · Jul 7, 2012

So a "17th" edition CU contains split circuits across 2 RCD's for what reason?

Deleted member 26818 · Jul 7, 2012

Cheapness.

Amp David · Jul 7, 2012

spinlondon said:
Never.

If they were for instance to be used for a washing machine and tumble dryer, they would not require RCD protection.

Even if the cable supplying the circuit was <50mm in a wall?

Barry Rathbone · Jul 7, 2012

spinlondon said:
Cheapness.

The point was why are they in in the first place.... cheapness inplies that you think they should be there !

Deleted member 26818 · Jul 7, 2012

Amp David said:
Even if the cable supplying the circuit was <50mm in a wall?

Yes, even if the cable is <50mm in a wall.
The Regulations require additional protection by means of a 30mA RCD for socket-outlets intended for general use by ordinary persons.
No mention of the circuit being protected.
The Regulations also require cables concealled in walls be provided by additional protecion, on of the aceptable methods, involves using 30mA RCD protection.
The only time the Regulations refer to circuits being provided with 30mA RCD protection, is in relation to special locations.
Locations containing baths or showers, Agricultural/Horticultural, etc.

Barry Rathbone · Jul 7, 2012

Lawnmower users beware.... your garden ain't a "special location" so feel free to tear your mains cable apart and die..

Shoot me now...

Deleted member 26818 · Jul 7, 2012

Barry Rathbone said:
The point was why are they in in the first place.... cheapness inplies that you think they should be there !

It is cheaper to install one RCD to protect a number of circuits, rather than to install individual RCBOs.
Just the same as it's cheaper to protect all of a socket-outlet circuit, than to install individual RCD sockets, where required.
If there are cables concealled in walls, that would also require additional protection, then two birds are killed with one stone.
However the fact that it may be easier and cheaper to protect the circuit, does not mean that there is any requirement to do so.
As such in the OP's case, there is no requirement to protect all of the circuit when adding socket-outlets, RCD protection (if required) only has to be provided for the additinal socket-outlets.
Of course additinal protection will also be required for the associated wiring if it is concealled in walls.

telectrix · Jul 7, 2012

so what you're saying, spin, is that if you add a socket outlet intended for use by ordinary persons, that can be a RCD socket and no RCD protection needs to be added to the existing , your new cable requiring protection by earthed metallic sheath or RCD if < 50mm deep in a wall.??

Deleted member 26818 · Jul 7, 2012

Barry Rathbone said:
Lawnmower users beware.... your garden ain't a "special location" so feel free to tear your mains cable apart and die..

Shoot me now...

That's a bit of a stupid statement, isn't it?

telectrix · Jul 7, 2012

simultaneous posts.

Deleted member 26818 · Jul 7, 2012

telectrix said:
so what you're saying, spin, is that if you add a socket outlet intended for use by ordinary persons, that can be a RCD socket and no RCD protection needs to be added to the existing , your new cable requiring protection by earthed metallic sheath or RCD if < 50mm deep in a wall.??

Could be earthed metallic sheath, earthed conduit or trunking, mechanical protection sufficient to prevent penetration by nails or screws or can be run on the surface of the wall.

ample current · Jul 7, 2012

Barry Rathbone said:
But this brings in other thoughts surely.

You install a new ring radial which HAS to be RCD protected old board can't get RCD's for ..hmm new board or do like they used to do and fit "another box with an rcd in" then another then another.
£40-60 job to £200-400 job, cant you just do the £40,yes of course but you have no room!

Ok i'll leave, then tom,dick or harry steps in for £25 and adds them anyway... sad but true..

Its not a new circuit,but an alteration to an existing ring final circuit for the first floor sockets of a domestic house, and not a radial.

ample current · Jul 7, 2012

Murdoch said:
If you read the installation instructions for most showers they say install with RCD protection so I'd say installing it and moving it both requires an RCD and notification too.

Who said any thing about showers.

telectrix · Jul 7, 2012

yes, i agree with that. the confusion arises over whether it.s necessary to fit RCD protection at the source of the circuit that you have worked on or just to protect the new cable/accessories. one argument is that because you have worked on a particular circuit, then that circuit in it's entirity should conform to current regs..

Barry Rathbone · Jul 7, 2012

ample current said:
Its not a new circuit,but an alteration to an existing one and not a radial.

Yes but the alteration must comply with relevant regulations do they not?

And yes "special location" sorry .... should have been more like "a place of danger where a RCD should not be used".. ^^

Deleted member 26818 · Jul 8, 2012

Barry Rathbone said:
Yes but the alteration must comply with relevant regulations do they not?

And yes "special location" sorry .... should have been more like "a place of danger where a RCD should not be used".. ^^

Compliance with the Regulations can be achieved for instance by spuring off the existing circuit using an RCD FCU.
Another option might be to add an RCD socket back to back with an existing socket-outlet.
Always assuming that RCD protection is required for the socket-outlets.
There's no requirement to protect the whole circuit, unless of course you are installing a socket-outlet in a bathroom, or the installation is Agricultural/horticultural.
As for the lawn mower comment, I doubt very much that my Suffolk Punch will be any safer because I've got an RCD.
However it is a requirement to provide additional protection by means of an RCD for mobile equipment used outdoors.
Still doesn't require the whole circuit to be RCD protected.

Barry Rathbone · Jul 8, 2012

No one in their right mind is going to install seperate circuits to accomodate the compliance with regulations.

anyone got a 50way CU that I can pick and choose which circuits I place on RCD and which I do not?

********.....

Its my real name IDC , your problem is if you are reported you will probably never get work.....

Deleted member 26818 · Jul 8, 2012

I think you'll find, that the majority of sparks (as in all but you), will install separate circuits.
They may not install them to accomodate compliance with the Regulations, they may install them for convenience, or simply because it's good practice.
As for needing a 50 way CU in order to be able to pick and choose, it's just not necessary, a 4 way will suffice.

Barry Rathbone · Jul 8, 2012

spinlondon said:
I think you'll find, that the majority of sparks (as in all but you), will install separate circuits.
They may not install them to accomodate compliance with the Regulations, they may install them for convenience, or simply because it's good practice.
As for needing a 50 way CU in order to be able to pick and choose, it's just not necessary, a 4 way will suffice.

And you ar ehow old? for interest only?

Amp David · Jul 8, 2012

spinlondon said:
Could be earthed metallic sheath, earthed conduit or trunking, mechanical protection sufficient to prevent penetration by nails or screws or can be run on the surface of the wall.

Yes of course, but then again when the customer says they don't want surface trunking, then I don't think that the use off mechanical protection is the next method on the list of the majority of electricians.

In reply to the OP, then the addition of the RCD is 99% of the time going to be the chosen method i'd of thought.