RCD requirements for old install

[davesparks]

Upgrading the main fuse box is probably a sensible thing to do by the sounds of it. I'd imagine it will make the place easier to sell as well.

If you are selling a commercial building it is unlikely to make much difference as the new owners will most likely alter/adapt the building to their purposes anyway and possibly remove whatever new DB is installed.

The Economy 7 fuse box is a different matter though. This installation has defintely not been touched and the sockets feeding the heaters can't be used to plug anything else in. Does everyone agree this is just a C3?

It's very hard to give a firm judgement on a code without actually seeing the installation, there could be any number of factors involved which you may not realise are important to mention.
If the heaters are plugged into sockets then they can be unplugged and used to plug something else in, it's just a question of whether anyone would do this during the E7 hours.
Plus it is very unusual for storage heaters to he connected via a socket, this may well be a cause to look a little deeper into the installation in itself.

 

[brianmoooore]

Where the regs at the time of installation differ from those that are current, C3s, improvement recommended, will be generated on any EICR undertaken. These C3s will not normally lead to an 'unsatisfactory' report.

 

[Ratmeister]

If you are selling a commercial building it is unlikely to make much difference as the new owners will most likely alter/adapt the building to their purposes anyway and possibly remove whatever new DB is installed.


It's very hard to give a firm judgement on a code without actually seeing the installation, there could be any number of factors involved which you may not realise are important to mention.
If the heaters are plugged into sockets then they can be unplugged and used to plug something else in, it's just a question of whether anyone would do this during the E7 hours.
Plus it is very unusual for storage heaters to he connected via a socket, this may well be a cause to look a little deeper into the installation in itself.

The E7 heaters can't be unplugged. I probably mean they are E7 power switches, not sockets. We have E7 heaters in a few buildings and they're all the same, the power lead from the heater is fixed and comes out the front of the switch.

 

[davesparks]

Where the regs at the time of installation differ from those that are current, C3s, improvement recommended, will be generated on any EICR undertaken.

Not necessarily, if there is no safety improvement to be made then no code should be given (eg pre-harmonisation colours) but if it is potentially dangerous then it will be reported as a C2 (eg unlinked fuse or circuit breaker in the neutral)

 

[brianmoooore]

Testing and allocation of coding should not be entirely a 'tick box' exercise. There will occasionally be things where the tester's expertise is used to declare a particular item as unsatisfactory.
This is a thread in DIY, not a deep intellectual discussion hidden in 'the Arms'.

 

[davesparks]

Testing and allocation of coding should not be entirely a 'tick box' exercise. There will occasionally be things where the tester's expertise is used to declare a particular item as unsatisfactory.

Nobody is suggesting it should be a tick box exercise are they?

This is a thread in DIY, not a deep intellectual discussion hidden in 'the Arms'.

It's not in the DIY section as I can't post there,
This thread is in electrical wiring, theories and regulations section, not that it makes any difference which section of the forum it is in.

 

[littlespark]

The OP is badged as DIY, so maybe some confusion there.


If an older installation has already been tested, and the worst outcome is a C3, then no work is required to bring it up to modern specs…
If it is decided that new work needs to be done, ie new lighting, new sockets etc, then the new work must be done to current regs, and may need a new CU at that time.

 

[Ratmeister]

Say we found a few C2s on an existing circuit? Would repairing them then require the latest regulations to be applied and force RCD protection and a new fuse box?

 

[littlespark]

Say we found a few C2s on an existing circuit? Would repairing them then require the latest regulations to be applied and force RCD protection and a new fuse box?

Repairing, or like for like replacement doesn’t normally warrant a certificate, never mind taking it up to current regs….
However, it would depend how much was being done…. If you were have to substantially rewire a section of circuit, I would say yes…. But changing a broken faceplate, no.

 

[Ratmeister]

If there has never been a previous EICR issued on the install, is that a problem? It might be hard to pinpoint when exactly the work was done originally. I know when approximately it was done but there is no documentation to state this.

 

[littlespark]

If there has never been a previous EICR issued on the install, is that a problem? It might be hard to pinpoint when exactly the work was done originally. I know when approximately it was done but there is no documentation to state this.

That’s where experienced, well trained electricians come in.

Initial verification and testing on a new job is all very well, but to produce a good EICR, the electrician needs to be able to age an installation… sometimes through the equipment in use, types of cable in use, general age of the building.. etc.
it doesn’t even have to be accurate. 20 year old, it’s possibly fine. 30, there could be age related wear and tear… 40…. 50?
TBH, there could be a 5 year old installation that has more problems and more serious problems than a 30 year old one done properly at the time.

The coding of a C1, or C2 has never changed. It’s either dangerous, or potentially dangerous.
A C3 is actually harder to identify, and I believe ROI has a “not to current regs” code as well. (Am I right there?)

C3 is classed as “improvement recommended” There is nothing there to demand it has to be brought up to date.

 

[Ratmeister]

Looks like the advice I’ve been given that all fuse boxes need replaced is wrong then!

 

[brianmoooore]

Looks like the advice I’ve been given that all fuse boxes need replaced is wrong then!

There is nothing to stop a Wylex rewireable fusebox being used for a brand new installation, provided it is of the later type that has a screw needing a screwdriver securing the cover over the fuses.

 

[Ratmeister]

There is nothing to stop a Wylex rewireable fusebox being used for a brand new installation, provided it is of the later type that has a screw needing a screwdriver securing the cover over the fuses.

I’ve had 3 electricians look at it, all NICEIC. Two of them said rewirable fuses are out in 18th edition guidelines, the other said it needs RCD protection. None of them said it’s okay because none of these guidelines were in force at the time.

I think an earlier post saying my problem will be the fact most electricians don’t actually know the regulations has hit the nail on the head.

 

[brianmoooore]

If you used one for a new installation RCD protection might well be required, but not under all circumstances. The RCD can be in a separate enclosure, connected into the tails feeding the fusebox.
Note that I'm not recommending the use of rewireable fuses, and have not installed a non RCD protected final circuit since the mid '80s. I'd certainly recommend that your fusegear is upgraded to the latest specs, but I wouldn't force you to by declaring your existing one unsatisfactory.