RCD - Skilled or Instructed Person

[martynp]

Just taken over a new client, their HQ had a PIR carried out a few weeks ago by a third party company, they have stated that 75 MCBs require changing to RCBO's because the are not under the supervision of a skilled or instructed operative as stated in BS7671. There are NO hazzardous areas in the building (they are all paper pusher).

How do you interpret the reg for this one, it seems a little over the top. I think it was their way of making work for themselves.

Comments please.

 

[roukel01]

thats a 17th edition regulation, if the installation was designed and constructed to 16th edition, then it's a code 4 and it doesn't require updating.

 

[pevvers]

Sounds like a money making scheme to me too.... Point your client in the direction of the ESC's periodic inspection reporting guide, and tell them to show it to the contractor and ask where no RCD in an office is anymore than a code 4...

 

[Guest123]

What circuits are they protecting at the mo???? any socket outlets likely to supply anything outdoors???

 

[GT1]

The previous contractor was correct in quoting the BRB, in that socket outlets will not be under supervision,, blah blah blah... and if you were at the design stage you would have to include RCD/RCBO protection for current regs.

But as others have stated, its a 4 at best.

You can win some brownie points with the client by highlighting the most vulnerable circuits and dealing with them first..!!

 

[martynp]

No outside stuff at all.

Who is a "skilled" or "instructed person"

BTW they have put it down as a code 4 but implied they need to be changed.

 

[welshsparky82]

Yeh code 4 m8.

still a lot of confusion amongst some testers, who think that because an installation is being tested to the 17th edition, that a 16th edition installation automatically fails

 

[Des 56]

My own take on the skilled or instructed person definition in your example would be,is there any likelyhood that an unskilled person(ie the pen pushers) going to drill the walls ?

The probability is no,and that imported skilled or instructed persons would be doing those things

I would ask the client for a signed statement of that intention and then omit the Rcbos
Alternatively instruct him yourself and ditto

 

[MarcT]

I would cite code 4 also. besides that, if there are no skilled or instructed persons on site, who would be testing the RCBO's every month.

 

[GT1]

It refers to people electricaly skilled (or so instructed) or otherwise knowledgeable about those particular surroundings.

"Both persons with some electrical knowledge and those with none may be classified as
instructed persons."

So INSTRUCTED people could be anyone, if they have received appropriate input "by skilled persons, to enable them to avoid dangers which electricity may create"

One example given during my 2391 course was a socket outlet in an office/factory, not RCD protected because it was for use with a particular piece of equipment which only operators who had been trained were allowed to use. So far so good.
On that basis alone, no RCD protection required. Even though the operators werent "electricaly" skilled, their use of it from that particular outlet was such, that only those who had received training on the equipment would be using the equipment and these people were aware of relevant health and safety procedures, ie isolation for cleaning, malfunctions, and switch off procedures. All hunky dory.

However, at the end of play each day they went home, in came the cleaners, and plugged the hoover into the same outlet..!

Now unless the cleaners had been on a (good) course covering how to use the hoover and the implications of an electrical fault... or under the supervision of such.. RCD required..!

So more than likely you wont have any "skilled or instructed" persons at those offices. With perhaps an exception of any IT technicians..
You will have mainly "ordinary" persons, as BRB calls them.

Perhaps putting all the staff on an "electrical health and safety" course.. ie an hours worth.. would then classify them as "instructed"..?!
And would probably be cheaper than 75 RCBO's.. haha

 

[tux130582]

Hey guys.

With reference to the above,

We are changing an old re wirable fuseboard in a school and are having dicussions with regards to instructed persons etc.

We are going to put al existingl outgoing sockets on an RCBO as this will bring it upto date as cleaners and any other "ordinary people" can use them. However we are not sure whether the lighting circuits (when chased in a wall less than 50mm not protected etc etc) also need to be put on RCBOS as they have a caretaker on site that can be deemed "an instructed person" ?

what are your thoughts on this?

many thanks

 

[UNG]

Hey guys.

With reference to the above,

We are changing an old re wirable fuseboard in a school and are having dicussions with regards to instructed persons etc.

We are going to put al existingl outgoing sockets on an RCBO as this will bring it upto date as cleaners and any other "ordinary people" can use them. However we are not sure whether the lighting circuits (when chased in a wall less than 50mm not protected etc etc) also need to be put on RCBOS as they have a caretaker on site that can be deemed "an instructed person" ?

what are your thoughts on this?

many thanks

A lot of the older schools had steel conduit chased into the walls so it might not be necessary to use RCBO's

 

[tux130582]

I will check that out but if this is not the case, whats your opinion?

 

[Spudnik]

I suppose technically, the caretaker is a skilled and instructed person and no members of staff or pupils should be hammering nails into the wall.

I think to make sure, have a word with tech support at your scheme provider.

 

[Johno]

Why can't they just make a clear set of rules for us all to follow.