RCD x1 on fuseboard

[Claire]

I'm a homeowner with no electrical skills. BG electrician came to repair something & said my fuse board is not to standard as it only has one RCD. The property was built in 1874 and most of the current systems were put in place in the 1980s. Lived here 24 years & the tripping mechanism works brilliantly. In my basic understanding you can't have two RCDs on one circuit & he was using modern regulations and applying them to my old property, which can't be done retrospectively, am I right? I am trying to sell, will this be an issue on survey & if so, what will it cost to correct. Thanks

 

[pc1966]

I wouldn't agree with this. Insulation testing between live conductors is something I always agree as a limitation for periodic inspection and testing. I wouldn't entertain carrying it out. And I would certainly claim that I carry out proper inspections - and pick up on an enormous number of issues. Inspection is the primary part of the process. Testing merely supplements inspection, and whilst some issues may be discovered this way inspection is likely to uncover the overwhelming majority.

I don't agree on all of that. Yes, the inspection is very important (as it is for PAT testing but often overlooked). It gives you the majority of age or use-related degradation that way, should show some of the C1 faults (exposed conductors, etc) and it also give you a good insight to the original installation quality (or lack thereof) and any subsequent work.

But...I have to say that I believe testing if also a fundamental aspect: "that will never happen" polarity reversal, looking for open conductors on rings (or imbalance pointing to poor joints), looking for linked or "shared neutral" circuits, and checking for signs of insulation degradation from mice chewing or otherwise damp/bad insulation, checking that Zs is low enough to be reasonable so you have some confidence in the condition of junctions/terminals, etc.

Now you don't have to remove everything for a good insight. You could do testing with L+N -> E to save unplugging or bulb removal and it will give you most of the information you could expect to get from such a test more easily, and without risking electronic devices that are still attached (as you could with a 250V test instead of 500V), but I still believe in testing.

Apologies to the original poster - we don't want to hijack your thread to discuss views on EICR, but that sort of thing can happen!

 

[Risteard]

I wasn't suggesting that testing isn't important. I was simply stating that the inspection is more fundamental and is supplemented by the testing. (Again - I'm not suggesting that testing is unimportant.)

I almost never insulation test at 250V really. One of the few reasons to do that would be where there is an SPD, but these are easily removed.

 

[ipf]

If you carry out a thorough inspection, you should be in a position to assess the state of the existing wiring and decide, as a result, how far you need to go with IR testing.

 

[Midwest]

Thanks to everyone above for the replies, I feel more reassured about it now. I asked him, hypothetically, if the house needed rewiring (always looking for the worst scenario) how much would it cost and he said £5-£7k ?. I don't know how realistic that is. I like the idea of magnanimously offering £50 Wilko. I was worried it would be a big issue on survey - assuming I ever get to that point given that this scourge is not only delaying everything but knocking house prices down too. ?

I would doubt much, that a prospective house sale is going to get going on any estate agents books, in the current crisis. So sit tight and wait at home.

If your house needs electrical refurbishment, that may be reflected in any offers by your buyers. I would not bother with any prior electrical inspections, unless there are obvious concerns for safety. Allow your buyers to negotiate survey's etc during the sale process, should that subject even rise.

 

[SparkyChick]

The issue of EICRs during a house sale is a thorny one. I've recently had cause to go and look at an installation that the seller's EICR claimed was safe and satisfactory.

The EICR was used to mask an un-notified board change (to install RCDs because the original surveyor commented on the lack of RCD protection). The quality of the work was horrendous but because the EICR said satisfactory they proceeded with the purchase. It wasn't until a family member (my AM2 assessor) went to carry out some works that this came to light, he then asked me to go and take a look.

My advice to sellers is that unless you have genuine concerns about the safety of the installation, don't do anything. Let the buyers shoulder the cost, but keep in mind that the buyers spark may be under instruction to 'get us a reason for dropping the price'. They may also be the kind of spark who finds things wrong to generate work.

If the buyers report comes back as unsatisfactory, it might be worth having a spark you trust (recommendation from family, friends, have previously used etc.) spend an hour with the report and the installation to double check the report. I was quickly able to establish the EICR from the seller wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and that's given the buyers some ammunition in trying to recover the cost of having the place rewired which is what it really needs (whether that will succeed or not is another matter but two electricians have visited the property on their behalf and found it to be sadly lacking and not at all as described on the EICR).

It's also worth pointing out that an EICR can have observations on it and still be satisfactory. Observations are classified as C1 (Danger present), C2 (Potential danger - i.e. something has to happen for the issue to become dangerous), C3 (Improvement recommended) and FI (Further investigation). Any C1, C2 and FI observations will result in an unsatisfactory EICR. So if the report has C3's only, this is no reason to drop the price as the EICR should be satisfactory (i.e. safe for continued use).

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

BG are awful. They trade off the historic name and reputation but the prices they charge and work they justify is often suspect.
A lot of it isn't even carried out by them but subbed out to other firms. Often the lowest bidder or on fixed price work per job.
So corners are cut to maximise profit.
If they tell you to get work done then get other quotes and don't use BG.
Personally I think, it's about time they get exposed on rogue traders again as they haven't learned.
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The issue of EICRs during a house sale is a thorny one. I've recently had cause to go and look at an installation that the seller's EICR claimed was safe and satisfactory.

The EICR was used to mask an un-notified board change (to install RCDs because the original surveyor commented on the lack of RCD protection). The quality of the work was horrendous but because the EICR said satisfactory they proceeded with the purchase. It wasn't until a family member (my AM2 assessor) went to carry out some works that this came to light, he then asked me to go and take a look.

My advice to sellers is that unless you have genuine concerns about the safety of the installation, don't do anything. Let the buyers shoulder the cost, but keep in mind that the buyers spark may be under instruction to 'get us a reason for dropping the price'. They may also be the kind of spark who finds things wrong to generate work.

If the buyers report comes back as unsatisfactory, it might be worth having a spark you trust (recommendation from family, friends, have previously used etc.) spend an hour with the report and the installation to double check the report. I was quickly able to establish the EICR from the seller wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and that's given the buyers some ammunition in trying to recover the cost of having the place rewired which is what it really needs (whether that will succeed or not is another matter but two electricians have visited the property on their behalf and found it to be sadly lacking and not at all as described on the EICR).

It's also worth pointing out that an EICR can have observations on it and still be satisfactory. Observations are classified as C1 (Danger present), C2 (Potential danger - i.e. something has to happen for the issue to become dangerous), C3 (Improvement recommended) and FI (Further investigation). Any C1, C2 and FI observations will result in an unsatisfactory EICR. So if the report has C3's only, this is no reason to drop the price as the EICR should be satisfactory (i.e. safe for continued use).

I have seen a lot more cases locally of EICRs being carried out and then an indemnity policy arranged by the sellers solicitors (around £100 for a semi through to over 2k for a Georgian town house) to progress the sell. The downside to that is you better make sure the EICR is water tight as if its not the insurer will come knocking on your door first if there are issues later on.

 

[radiohead]

The downside to that is you better make sure the EICR is water tight as if its not the insurer will come knocking on your door first if there are issues later on.

Is there any actual evidence of insurance companies pursuing contractors on that basis ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

The EICR is like an MOT it's only valid up to the date of the document.

 

[multimick]

The EICR is like an MOT it's only valid up to the date of the document.

The indemnity insurance has to be agreed to by the buyers solicitors

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Is there any actual evidence of insurance companies pursuing contractors on that basis ?

Not heard of it but when you are talking about listed Georgian townhouses worth between 1 and 5 mlion pounds. You can be certain if something did come to light given the potential costs the insurer would look to persue a case against the indemnity policy and then the electrician in turn hence professional indemnity. When I did a EICR for a substantial townhouse last year which took 4 days to do. I had to get an additional cover provision to my professional indemnity for £5m coverage at request of the customer and his building insurer. Added the extra cost to the invoice. As my PI covers 500k normally. With all these things it's a worse case scenario thinking but at some point somebody will come unstuck with these poor EICRs.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The indemnity insurance has to be agreed to by the buyers solicitors

And what is that supposed to mean? indemnity insurance is just that it indemnifies the insured up to the amount of the insurance for claims against them.

 

[multimick]

And what is that supposed to mean? indemnity insurance is just that it indemnifies the insured up to the amount of the insurance for claims against them.

It means exactly what it says.I had a job recently the customer had no eic for new Circuits and no original spark to ask for one. I told him about ins policy optoon and the other solicitor would not accept one ended up with an eicr

 

[Mike Johnson]

I'm sorry I still don't get what you are trying to say?

 

[multimick]

I'm sorry I still don't get what you are trying to say?

If the seller of a property has had electrical work done and no paperwork to back it up then an indemnity policy mIght not get accepted .if the buyers solicitors for whatever reason won't accept one . Only saying because it happened to someone I know recently

 

[Mike Johnson]

I still don't get it, the Professional indemnity insurance policy is taken out by the electrician not the seller of the property, I don't get the bit about the buyers solicitor not accepting "one" one what?