- Thread starter ejmoore
- Start date
I dont have a choice seeing as there is a borrowed neutral on the lights somewhere...cant be bothered to find it 
D
Deleted member 26818
You have to decide, how far you want to go to comply with the regulation.
It could be argued that having every outlet on it's own circuit would provide the minimal inconvenience.
Some people choose not to divide between up and down, but front and back, or even left and right.
It could be argued that having every outlet on it's own circuit would provide the minimal inconvenience.
Some people choose not to divide between up and down, but front and back, or even left and right.
As sparky3366 observed if the upstairs and downstairs circuits had a borrowed neutral then it is possible that when the board was fitted the installer chosen to join the 2 together.
In the borrowed neutral scenario if the 2 circuits been put on separate RCDs then the RCDs would have kept tripping, as current from one circuit would be going down neutral of other hence imbalance and trip. Had they been on separate MCBs on the same RCD then safe isolation would be an issue under 314.4 and 314.1 vi which is in my view a more important reg (as it could result in a shock for the next person to work on the circuit)
Having said that there is a choice and that is to remove the borrowed neutral, so that the circuits are truly seperate, this is by far the most desirable solution although it may well involve pulling the house apart!
It would have been nice to get an explanation as to why the course of action was taken but it may transpire that it was the lesser of a number of evils! The customer should have, in my mind, had these options explained before action was taken and the "deviation" noted and explained on the installation certificate for the new board ( so as to avoid confusion for the next spark)
Now if there is no borrowed neutral, and they were separate it just seems wrong to me
In the borrowed neutral scenario if the 2 circuits been put on separate RCDs then the RCDs would have kept tripping, as current from one circuit would be going down neutral of other hence imbalance and trip. Had they been on separate MCBs on the same RCD then safe isolation would be an issue under 314.4 and 314.1 vi which is in my view a more important reg (as it could result in a shock for the next person to work on the circuit)
Having said that there is a choice and that is to remove the borrowed neutral, so that the circuits are truly seperate, this is by far the most desirable solution although it may well involve pulling the house apart!
It would have been nice to get an explanation as to why the course of action was taken but it may transpire that it was the lesser of a number of evils! The customer should have, in my mind, had these options explained before action was taken and the "deviation" noted and explained on the installation certificate for the new board ( so as to avoid confusion for the next spark)
Now if there is no borrowed neutral, and they were separate it just seems wrong to me
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When I moved in here, the work had been done by some numpty with taped live ends in the trunking drop to the cu. All the rfc checked out ok as did boiler & cooker circs. The lighting could do with rewiring really, but it is in t&e and there is a 17th cu in. Another reason for not doing it is my beloveds fetish for laminate flooring. I ain't lifting that! The lights are on jb's and there is 4 of them on the landing...nightmare.
I'm a council tenant having work done under decency, carpets, floor boards lifted and walls chopped out so distruption is not an issue really.
Lighting was not rcd protected hence no nusiance tripping.
My tutor tells me that it is also a regulation of my council that the circuits should be separate.
Qustion is do I call the clerk of works.
Lighting was not rcd protected hence no nusiance tripping.
My tutor tells me that it is also a regulation of my council that the circuits should be separate.
Qustion is do I call the clerk of works.
Presumably it is RCD protected now and that may be why it became an issue. There is no requirement to make an old install comply to new regs when the CU is installed and so splitting the circuits is not really required, hence the question of new install versus change by telectrix, you shouldn't make things worse though which may have occurred in this case (although the overall safety has improved). If it concerns you then speak to the clerk of works and ask why it has been done explaining that the circuits were separate before hand and see what he says, assuming he has got the EIC and read it then he would already know the lights were combined now (and hopefully why). He might just say that's the way it is however if the council have a policy for their housing stock and yours doesn't comply he may get it remedied.
Sorry that's a bit vague but I guess it depends on a few factors and the clerk of works is the one who knows (or should) all those factors
Sorry that's a bit vague but I guess it depends on a few factors and the clerk of works is the one who knows (or should) all those factors
I do find it an issue as I class it as being a hazard. If I was upstairs on a night and a lamp had blown, leaving me in total darkness. I could substain serious injury getting down stairs, throu the hall, across the living room into the kitchen to the pantry under my stairs, to reset. As i'm human I might be quite tipsy too. lol
Any changes to a circuit should comply with BS7671 regulations should they not.
Any changes to a circuit should comply with BS7671 regulations should they not.
If you changed a light switch would you pull out all the nice black and red wiring that was put in 10 years ago to replace it with the much more attractive and fashionable 2008 edition blue and brown? No
However if you add a new switch then IT and ITS new wiring have to comply with the current regs e.g. the new wire if chased in a wall has to be 5cm deep, in a earthed metalic sheath/or conduit or RCD protected now that ONLY needs to be for the new wire (OK so its better to do it at the CU and cover the whole lot but that isn't the only way to meet the requirements).
Not everything is cut and dry, best practice and requirements do not always correspond exactly. What would you have said if there was only one lighting circuit in the first place?
As I said speak to the clerk of works and express your concerns and push as hard as you like, your concerns are valid and justified I'm just not sure he's obliged to do anything about it (even if best practice says he should). If you explain it was on 2 circuits in the first place then you could play the card that has become less compliant in 314.1 i IMHO they should have had 2 circuits and fixed the underlying issue if it exists someone was going for the easy life!
However if you add a new switch then IT and ITS new wiring have to comply with the current regs e.g. the new wire if chased in a wall has to be 5cm deep, in a earthed metalic sheath/or conduit or RCD protected now that ONLY needs to be for the new wire (OK so its better to do it at the CU and cover the whole lot but that isn't the only way to meet the requirements).
Not everything is cut and dry, best practice and requirements do not always correspond exactly. What would you have said if there was only one lighting circuit in the first place?
As I said speak to the clerk of works and express your concerns and push as hard as you like, your concerns are valid and justified I'm just not sure he's obliged to do anything about it (even if best practice says he should). If you explain it was on 2 circuits in the first place then you could play the card that has become less compliant in 314.1 i IMHO they should have had 2 circuits and fixed the underlying issue if it exists someone was going for the easy life!
Then, guess I would of just exepted that it was on 1 circuit.
Thanks for your replies.
As for the easy life of some professions, you should see the position of my boiler and flu. Boiler is 6 foot away from outside wall leaving me with the flu running across my bedroom to the outside wall. Complained to Clerk of works( its getting moved). He's going to tell me to P off and stop moaning.
Thanks for your replies.
As for the easy life of some professions, you should see the position of my boiler and flu. Boiler is 6 foot away from outside wall leaving me with the flu running across my bedroom to the outside wall. Complained to Clerk of works( its getting moved). He's going to tell me to P off and stop moaning.
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