Relaxed to band D

[Gavin A]

we've decided to outsource this epc nonsense to someone locally who're a freelance EPC assessor who we've recently installed a PV system for.

I worked out it would take a huge number of jobs before we made back the cost of the training and certification for doing it in house once the extra hours used for the survey and paperwork were factored in.

We should be putting a system in place whereby he can pre-register the customer, work out a provisional EPC rating without PV, with the PV system we're quoting for, and if needed, with additional works to bring the property up to a D rating.

The full EPC will then be produced on completion of these works, so the registration fee only needs to be paid once, can be transferred to a different customer by just editing all the data if we don't get the work, and we're not handing an actual EPC certificate over at the point of quoting which could then mean any other company that got the work instead of us could just use the cert we'd supplied instead of having to pay for their own.

I think this is the best way forward, and the guy's going to dig through his previous 1000+ EPCs to get us some examples of what sort of house is likely to be a complete no no, what's likely to be a d already, and what's likely to be easily upgradable to a D.

It's just occurred to me though that we're going to have to rewrite all our paperwork, quotes process, payback calcs, and website.... something I only just redid in Jan for MCS assessment. grrrrrr

 

[SolarCity]

Interesting plan, Gavin.

I think it is possibly something that we will look at doing also. I'm not entirely clued up on D rated EPC properties but I'm wondering if it can be blindingly obvious that a property will pass for at least a 'D' and blindingly obvious which ones have no chance of achieving it. If this can be sussed at initial survey then we were thinking of pricing as normal and carrying out a EPC survey as soon as contracts are signed.

 

[BruceB]

In principle I would like to do them myself, but I have come to the view it is too much time effort and money and there is a good supply of assessors
Looking at this site:
https://www.epcregister.com/searchAssessor.html
there are 15 assessors within 3 miles of me and I live in the sticks!

 

[Earthstore]

What is wrong with the customer paying for an EPC, it is theirs to keep for 10 years, if they want to sell or move then they have one.
There is only so much that the price of a PV system can cover, what else are you going to include in your price? Double glazing or insulation to reach band D so that you can fit a PV system?

 

[dansk]

What is wrong with the customer paying for an EPC, it is theirs to keep for 10 years, if they want to sell or move then they have one.
There is only so much that the price of a PV system can cover, what else are you going to include in your price? Double glazing or insulation to reach band D so that you can fit a PV system?

Nothing, but as Gavin says, the customer has more freedom to search aroind with a EPC in the hand, unlike if you provide as part of the service its one less reason for them to look elsewere.

 

[Gavin A]

What is wrong with the customer paying for an EPC, it is theirs to keep for 10 years, if they want to sell or move then they have one.
There is only so much that the price of a PV system can cover, what else are you going to include in your price? Double glazing or insulation to reach band D so that you can fit a PV system?

I predict you'll lose a lot of business to companies that aren't insisting on the customer producing their own EPC before they can calculate the financial payback etc.

Seriously, I can't see how any company will be able to compete without doing it this way, so much better to be offering this from the start instead of waiting until this prediction becomes reality and others are getting our work for the sake of a £50 EPC fee.

I also think by doing it this way we'll be able to offer people cost effective ways of achieving band D, and build in the likely payback from reduced energy bills from these additional measures into our overall payback figures.

Basically though, I don't see how we can produce accurate financial payback figures for customers at the quote stage without having an EPC assessor doing the initial calcs for us (obviously we could chose to be the EPC assessor, but for now at least I think outsourcing if the only way for us given that it's only a month away).

If we can't produce accurate financial payback estimates I think it's going to be far harder convincing potential customers that it's worthwhile pursuing, and our jobs per quote ratio will drop by more than the cost of just paying for an EPC to be done. Or in numbers, it probably costs between £100-200 in staff time to do a survey and produce each quote, we currently get around 1 in 2 to 1 in 2.5 jobs we quote for, if this fell to say one in 4 then this would mean each job we did get would need to cover the design/survey costs of the 3 jobs we didn't + it's design/survey costs, so around £600 per job vs £400 per job if we had bitten the bullet and coughed up for the EPC at the quote stage and maintained our better quote to job ratio... plus the difficulty of getting the additional enquiries, and the additional design staff needed to produce double the number of system designs.

etc.

of course I could be wrong, but I'm not prepared to risk it for the sake of £50 or so a quote.

 

[Earthstore]

I guess we will all have to move forward in the way in which we sell, I have some ideas for the future, I do feel that many companies will fall by the wayside, and in some ways feel sorry for those just starting out because we have spent years (well maybe 2 or 3) learning about this complex industry, and as new comers, quite frankly most do not stand a chance.
The sad truth is, we are all trying to make ways to work with the new rules, however some of them are still proposed, and not confirmed.
It is certainly going to be an interesting future for us all, let's just hope it is a little smoother than it has been of late.

 

[SRE]

Contrary to what I've been saying I've actually decided to go down the DEA training route but I have done it before and I'm doing it online not going to a course, taking time out and having to pay for accommodation.

Paying the £8 for registration isn't really the issue - how are you going to know what the rating is going to be if the DEA hasn't visited and you can't expect the DEA to visit without being paid. I'm not suggesting that the customer should be given an EPC until after installation but you will certainly need a DEA visiting before hand to make sure the d rating is viable.

Imagine the scenario: yes Mrs Bloggs your property was built in the 60's and with cavity wall insulation you'll comfortably reach the d rating. Cavity guys come along - sorry can't insulate the cavity it's a dirty cavity, snots on the wall ties will cause horrendous problems. No d rating, if you've already installed you'd be up the creek. Maybe the boiler was so old that the house that should have had the d rating couldn't possibly get it. Worse still, you need cavity wall insualtion Mrs Bloggs, I'll just refer you to Tesco - just ignore their quote for solar ....

Too many possibilities for losing work for me. I'm thinking further, to the Green Deal too, it's 3/4 way to the Green Deal training which might present another opportunity if we can't manage to make solar stack up at 13p.

We could do with some guidance from Ofgem about what exactly is required - it's over a week since REAL said that Ofgem were nearly ready to get the information out - where is it??

 

[SolarCity]

I'm going to make a pretty simple prediction.....

The amount of dodgy sales tactics will go through the roof in a months time. Genuine firms will fail to compete and big firms will simply 'D' rate whichever property they please, regardless of the reality. You'll have to get used to the "Company B promised me that my property would be 'D' rated so I've decided to go with them".

The state of the industry is already an utter disgrace - Lying salespeople, pressure-sales, untrained salespeople, incompetent tradesmen.... the list goes on. It's going to get worse.

 

[Gavin A]

thing is though, that any companies doing that would open themselves and the assessors up to fraud charges.

I'd hope they'd put in place a system of spot checks, but I'm guessing they'll not have that in place in time for kick off.

I'd just point out to any customers that this does happen with though that this would amount to fraud, and they could find themselves in court along with the company involved defending themselves against fraud charges as well as being disbarred from the whole FIT scheme if the scheme adminstrators decide to investigate that companies activities. I'd expect that 99% of customers would have second thoughts at that point.

 

[SolarCity]

What is the worst that could happen? They lose their DEA license?

I don't think it would end up in fraud charges because, lets face it, none of the other bull that they spurt out ever gets punished.

 

[Gavin A]

let's see if they actually prosecute anyone for pre-registering systems then installing them after the deadlines.

I get the feeling some examples are going to be made here, and there's an element of them giving the companies enough rope to hang themselves.

 

[SRE]

I'm watching 4 near me that have scaffolding up .......

 

[SolarCity]

The way a lot of these firms operate is in the short term. They don't anticipate trading beyond 12 months anyway so it doesn't matter to them. You can't prosecute a firm that doesn't exist.

 

[TedM]

If carrying out a fraud then the individual(s) can always be prosecuted. Being an employee or director of a limited company that is no longer trading is no defense.

Companies Act 2006

993 Offence of fraudulent trading

(1)If any business of a company is carried on with intent to defraud creditors of the company or creditors of any other person, or for any fraudulent purpose, every person who is knowingly a party to the carrying on of the business in that manner commits an offence.

(2)This applies whether or not the company has been, or is in the course of being, wound up.

(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or a fine (or both);
(b)on summary conviction—
(i)in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both);
(ii)in Scotland or Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both).