removing soil stack for Durgo

[chris murphy]

If the termination of a soil stack by a Durgo is an ancillary work of installing solar PV, then provided the solar PV installer is mcs registered and provided the alteration is done in accordance with building regs, then no separate notification is required. When the notification is made for the PV it covers all parts of the building regs.

"Hello BruceB",

I am NOT trying to be pedantic here:

When a Tradesman who is a Member of a Competent Persons Scheme Notifys Works that are carried out which they are Registered / Qualified to do - `Ancilliary Works` which are Governed by the Building Regulations are obviously required to adhere to the Building Regulations applicable to those Ancilliary Works.

It would NOT be correct to presume that because a Person / Company is Registered in a Competent Persons Scheme for Solar PV Installation - and has had some `Training in Ancilliary Works` - that they would be either Knowledgeable enough OR Qualified / Registered for the Works that are governed / regulated by `Part H` of the Building Regulations - `Drainage & Waste Dispposal` - which is what would apply to theinstallation of the Air Admittance Valve.


It would be the Knowledge of `Part H` of the Building Regulations AND Experience in Drainage and Waste Water Systems that would be lacking in MOST Solar PV Installers - regarding being able to Investigate and make the Decision as to whether the Soil Stack Vent could be terminated to within the Roof Space and an Air Admittance Valve fitted - and NOT affect the `Air behind Water` / Correct Venting of the Drainage System.


So I maintain that it is NOT the ability to Cut Back the Soil Stack Vent Pipe to within the Roof Space and fit the `Durgo Valve` / Air Admittance Valve - BUT - The knowledge and experience to be able to Investigate and make that decision that Solar PV Installers may NOT have.


I am NOT trying to be `Awkward / Funny` here - there are plenty of `Plumbers` who would NOT immediately know how to go about determining whether a Soil Stack Vent could be terminated within the Roof Space with an Air Admittance Valve - allowing for the Correct Venting of the Drainage / Soil & Waste Water Systems of that Home and the Adjacent Homes.


Regards,


Chris - Plumber - Heating Enginner - Gas Engineer / Heating, Plumbing & Gas Contractor

 

[BruceB]

Well you sound like you are being pedantic, but actually I pretty much agree with you! Not every PV installer will have the knowledge to cut back a stack and fit an air admittance valve within the regulations, but it is not rocket science and many PV types can read and understand building regulations. My point was really that assuming the work is done properly (ie competently, which can involve some or all of knowledge, training, qualifications and experience) then the law does allow them to notify the work as compliant.

 

[Worcester]

When the notification is made for the PV it covers all parts of the building regs

As specified in the regs themselves:

20. Any building work which is necessary to ensure that any appliance, service or fitting which is installed and which is described in the preceding entries in column 1 above, complies with the applicable requirements contained in Schedule 1. This paragraph does not apply to the provision of a masonry chimney.

Such competency should have been checked by the certifying bodies. - One of the checks they carry out is what someone does when they don't immediately know the answer, and as part of the MCS, all these procedures are documented.

So they can carry out the work, they do however have to ensure it complies with the buidling regs, one of the reasons I guess the OP asked the question here...

So Chris, before yoou rip him apart, he realised he need more info and asked, our role here therefore is to help and guide hime to do the right thing the right way.

 

[chris murphy]

Well, this is all new to me, if you fit a new rad you need building regs!
How the hell are they going to police that one?

Strange really there are systems fitted without structural surveys, fitted without scaffold, and they can not police that.

If they were to concentrate on policing the serious points then maybe things would be better in this industry.

I am going to change from Andrex who do I notify?

"Hello Earthstore",

`This is a New one to Me` - regarding fitting New Radiators requiring Building Regulations - are You implying that You `KNOW All of the Building Regulations` - ?

Here is a Quote / Small list of items from a Leaflet:
`Competent Person’s Schemes for building work, replacements and repairs to your home`:
Detailing Works that require either Installation by a Competent Person Scheme Member - where the Works will be Notified by the Member VIA the Scheme to the Local Authority Building Control Department - OR - that must be Notified directly to the LABC:

QUOTE:
You DO need to tell your Local Authority Building Control about the following work unless you use an installer who is registered with a Competent Person Scheme:


New installation or replacement of a heating system or any boiler, regardless of fuel type

New installation or replacement of an oil tank

Installation of a new bathroom or kitchen if existing electrics or plumbing is altered or if new electrics or plumbing are installed

Installation of fixed air conditioning systems

Installation of additional radiators to an existing heating system

New electrical installations in bathrooms, kitchens and outdoors

Replacement window and door units


END OF QUOTE


As You can see above the Installation of additional Radiators is Work that has to be either completed by a Heating Engineer / Installer who is Registered with a Competent Persons Scheme - OR - Must be Notified to the LABC.


Of course I agree with You - who would Notify the Installation of a couple of additional Radiators to their Home.

BUT - if this was because of for example an Extension or Loft Conversion being Built - this might well involve the Installation of a New Boiler - which would then require that the Heating System Controls were compliant with the Energy Efficiency Regulations - they might well have to be Upgraded - these `New Installations / Additions` are more what the Building Regulations are there to cover.

BUT - Adding a couple of Radiators to Rooms which are not as Warm as they should be is still covered by these Regulations.

I hope that this information is helpful to some Members / Readers.

Regards,


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

As specified in the regs themselves:



Such competency should have been checked by the certifying bodies. - One of the checks they carry out is what someone does when they don't immediately know the answer, and as part of the MCS, all these procedures are documented.

So they can carry out the work, they do however have to ensure it complies with the buidling regs, one of the reasons I guess the OP asked the question here...

So Chris, before yoou rip him apart, he realised he need more info and asked, our role here therefore is to help and guide hime to do the right thing the right way.

"Hello Worcester",

I do not understand what You meant by this:

`So Chris, before yoou rip him apart, he realised he need more info and asked, our role here therefore is to help and guide him to do the right thing the right way` - ?

I have not written ANYTHING that could be even remotely viewed as `Ripping Apart the OP` - Just the OPPOSITE !

EVERYTHING that I have written on this subject is to answer `Information` that I found to be `Not quite correct` - My motive was to TRY and ensure that the OP did NOT get Incorrect Information.

Your reference to `before You rip him apart` - was this a response to what I wrote to BruceB - ?

IF So - I wanted to explain to BruceB what I felt about His comments - and add MY take on this Subject.

You may have seen in one of My previous Posts that I wrote something along the lines of: `Solar Installers must decide what actions to take regarding this` - words to that effect - I wrote that because I KNOW that MOST would definitely NOT even think twice about terminating the Soil Stack Vent within the Roof Space with an air Admittance Valve - OR about Notifying that.



Clearly the `motives` of some other Members regarding this subject are EITHER `We DON`T want Chris / a Plumber telling Us that We should NOT just be altering the Soil Stack Vent Pipe with the installation of an Air Admittance Valve [`Durgo Valve`] because this would `Complicate` a lot of Solar PV Jobs.

I completely understand that attitude.


OR - `We Solar PV Installers know more about this `Ancillary Work` / `Part H` of the Building Regulations - `Drainage & Waste Disposal` than this `Plumber` - ?


I am just writing about how the Building Regulations / LABC apply to this - `For Information purposes ONLY`.

I will now `Leave it at That` - to avoid further `Arguments with Members.


Regards,

Chris

 

[Earthstore]

I am not implying that I know all the building regs, quite the opposite actually.

I am sorry, but even though your posts are very informative you appear to have a pop at people when it is totally uncalled for.

We are always grateful of any good advice, as that is how we all learn, but also get rattled when we feel folk are out of order.

Regards.

 

[chris murphy]

Well you sound like you are being pedantic, but actually I pretty much agree with you! Not every PV installer will have the knowledge to cut back a stack and fit an air admittance valve within the regulations, but it is not rocket science and many PV types can read and understand building regulations. My point was really that assuming the work is done properly (ie competently, which can involve some or all of knowledge, training, qualifications and experience) then the law does allow them to notify the work as compliant.

"Hello again BruceB",

I was going to leave this with My last Post to Worcester - But I felt that I needed to reply to You.

Perhaps it is My knowledge of the Building Regulations - in this case `Part H` - `Drainage and Waste Disposal` and My comments about adhereing to those Regulations that make Me seem Pedantic.

It is NOT simply the ability to READ the Building Regulations - the Tradesmen / Builders who put these Regulations into Practice are usually `Experienced Tradesmen` IN Drainage and Waste Water Systems.

Where do Solar PV Installers obtain the `Knowledge and Experience` of Drainage and Waste Water Systems to be able to Investigate and DECIDE whether installing an Air Admittance Valve is appropriate - and will NOT affect the VENTING / Flowing of the Soil and Waste Water AND Drainage System - ?

These are the points that I am making.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

I am not implying that I know all the building regs, quite the opposite actually.

I am sorry, but even though your posts are very informative you appear to have a pop at people when it is totally uncalled for.

We are always grateful of any good advice, as that is how we all learn, but also get rattled when we feel folk are out of order.

Regards.

"Hello Earthstore",

I am a Member of this Forum because I received some help from a Member - topquark - which was very useful to Me - because of that and for approximately 16 Months I have been writing Advice and Information to Members about subjects on Heating - Plumbing & Gas ONLY.

ALL of which I am Fully Qualified in and have Decades of Experience in - having been in these Trades for over 40 Years [since an Apprentice] and Self Employed for over 30 Years.

I view this purely as a `Payback` for being helped by topquark - that is My ONLY `Motive` for being active on the Forum.

I have NEVER received any comments from Members regarding Me either Offending them or being `Pedantic`.

However IF I feel that someone is `Being Funny` with Me I am well able to `Defend Myself` with comments and information - especially as I will ONLY be writing about Heating - Plumbing or Gas - where I have an extensive knowledge and experience of these Trades and the Regulations that `Govern` them.


If I am going to be writing details which would be giving information which was completely different to what they were assuming I would sometimes write `I am NOT trying to be Pedantic here`.

That statement is to TRY and NOT seem argumentative - but to still TRY and Inform about the Correct facts of the matter.

I would be grateful if You could draw My attention to ocassions where I `have had a pop at people` - I would be Horrified to see that !

IF I have offended You or any of the other Members with My messages on this thread - I Apologise.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Earthstore]

Apology accepted.

Regards

Earthstore.

 

[Gavin A]

Chris, tbh I think your input is potentially invaluable to this debate, but at the moment it's going round in circles IMO because you're just telling us we're not experienced enough to make these assessments, rather than giving examples of situations in which this might be problematic.

fwiw, I thought we were qualified by dint of having an experienced apprentice trained gas safe heating engineer & plumber within the company, though he never raised any objections to our use of the AAV's, and didn't seem to need to carry out any complex calcs before assessing it as ok. I'm now wondering if he should have been, or whether it's relatively simple on most houses we've done it on so he didn't feel the need, or if he actually just didn't know as much about this area as I assumed he did.

I thought that we'd assessed each installation as being suitable according to the regs, based on their being a vented stack next door, one way or another (somewhere down the lines I actually got the idea that 1 in 7 was a rule of thumb or actually guidance on that, but can't remember where I got that from now, and it's never been anything like that - I think there's always been one next door), and pretty basic houses with maybe 2 toilets & basins, 1 bath / shower, kitchen sink.

But now you've made me wonder if we've been missing something, so I'd really appreciate some pointers on any key aspects of an installation that are likely to result in an AAV not being appropriate / allowed if you could.

If it's a lot more complex than I'd been thinking, then I guess we're going to have to get specialist advice before we install one in future.

 

[Gavin A]

ps I'm guessing that your response on this thread is a bit akin to a sparks response to plumbers bodging electrical installations to bathrooms etc.

 

[chris murphy]

Chris, tbh I think your input is potentially invaluable to this debate, but at the moment it's going round in circles IMO because you're just telling us we're not experienced enough to make these assessments, rather than giving examples of situations in which this might be problematic.

fwiw, I thought we were qualified by dint of having an experienced apprentice trained gas safe heating engineer & plumber within the company, though he never raised any objections to our use of the AAV's, and didn't seem to need to carry out any complex calcs before assessing it as ok. I'm now wondering if he should have been, or whether it's relatively simple on most houses we've done it on so he didn't feel the need, or if he actually just didn't know as much about this area as I assumed he did.

I thought that we'd assessed each installation as being suitable according to the regs, based on their being a vented stack next door, one way or another (somewhere down the lines I actually got the idea that 1 in 7 was a rule of thumb or actually guidance on that, but can't remember where I got that from now, and it's never been anything like that - I think there's always been one next door), and pretty basic houses with maybe 2 toilets & basins, 1 bath / shower, kitchen sink.

But now you've made me wonder if we've been missing something, so I'd really appreciate some pointers on any key aspects of an installation that are likely to result in an AAV not being appropriate / allowed if you could.

If it's a lot more complex than I'd been thinking, then I guess we're going to have to get specialist advice before we install one in future.

"Hello Gavin A",

I am NOT trying to state that determining whether a Soil Stack Vent can be terminated internally and have an Air Admittance Valve fitted is a particularly `Technical` task - BUT there definitely needs to be some Investigation done - Especially on Properties that are at the ENDS of groups of Houses / a Terrace.

You have been being responsible if You are looking at adjacent Properties for Soil Stacks / Vent Stacks `To / From` the Drainage regarding the Property that You were working on having Vented Drainage on either side - BUT - what about an End House ?

The main point that I was trying to make to BruceB and others is that it is not always obvious which way the Drainage run is running.

A VERY Important point is that the `Head` / End of a Drain run MUST be Vented - are Solar PV Installers investigating to find out which way the Drainage runs - or if a Property is at the End of the Drainage run ?

Imagine a Cul de Sac - which End / Ends [?] are the `Heads` of the Drain runs - ?

Without Investigations - which involves Opening Manholes / Inspection Chambers at the very least it would be impossible to know.

Unless the Drainage Drawings were available - which they almost invariably would NOT be - without the involvement of the Building Control Department / Building Control Officer.

To give You an Example of the kind of `Problem` that `Sealing` / fitting an Air Admittance Valve to a Soil Stack Vent which connects to the END / `Head` of a Drainage run can cause:

In SOME circumstances this could allow the Build-up of a large amount of Methane Gas from the Drainage System - and in certain circumstances / pressures within the Soil Stack this Gas could escape from the `Sealed` Soil Stack INTO the House via the W.C. Pan Trap or other Waste Water Traps - Just Imagine that !

This could happen even with a Vent to an adjacent property.

Comments about `1 in 5` or `1 in 7` Drains / Soil Stacks Houses having to be Vented is NOT something that can be Quoted as a `General Rule` - If that were the case there would not be Vented Drains and Soil Stacks to MOST Houses.

I was TRYING to convey the need to at least KNOW the above and the need to Investigate to find out at least where the `Head` / End of the Drainage run is - and ensure that this End is Vented by a `Open to Air` Soil Stack / Vent Pipe.


For the reason that I explained in a previous Post - I am NOT on the Forum to try and be a `Know All`/ Pedantic - I have what could be described as slightly `altruistic` reasons for trying to help the Electrician / Electrical Engineers / other Readers with their questions on Heating - Plumbing and Gas.

I definitely view giving this Advice this as some `Payback` for being helped originally on here.


Regards,

Chris