Ring Final Circuit (RFC) versus Radial. Yes, again. | Page 3 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Ring Final Circuit (RFC) versus Radial. Yes, again. in the Electrical Engineering Chat area at ElectriciansForums.net

Post No.28 above is important, because it debunks one of the most common incorrect arguments used against the 2.5sq.mm. 32A ring. It is often said that if one leg becomes disconnected or the circuit is badly arranged leaving all or most of the 32A load on one leg of 2.5, that cable presents a fire risk through overload. It does not.

As stated in the above post, the most likely result is a minor reduction in cable service life, and the worst reasonably likely result is a more significant reduction in cable service life. A length of 2.5 carrying any level of current that a 32A MCB will give it, will not burst into flames nor set anything else on fire. It will be hot to the touch and a bit floppy and that is all. It will withstand perhaps 80A before anything dramatic happens, and even then that is not generally fire.

To re-state that in practical terms, a defective ring of 2.5T+E with spurs off spurs, inappropriate load distribution and one leg open circuit, will support four 12A heaters plugged into a row of adjacent sockets anywhere until the 32A OCPD trips, without anything catching fire and probably without any further damage of any sort.

Fire does not start with marginally-overloaded conductors, which rise to an elevated but not extreme temperature and then reach equilibrium, never to get hotter. Much more likely to start a fire is the uncontrolled temperature that can be reached by arcing connections, since these can just go on getting hotter and hotter as their resistance rises. Where a connection fails high-resistance, the parallel paths available in the RFC can replace a potential arcing scenario with a marginal conductor overload one, in which case it probably reduces the risk of fire. It does then reduce the likelihood of fault detection, but the very fact that we do find burnt terminals still in service shows that detection is not by any means guaranteed in use.
 
Post No.28 above is important, because it debunks one of the most common incorrect arguments used against the 2.5sq.mm. 32A ring. It is often said that if one leg becomes disconnected or the circuit is badly arranged leaving all or most of the 32A load on one leg of 2.5, that cable presents a fire risk through overload. It does not.
Even in a properly connected joint, when heated could cause a fire risk.

Much more likely to start a fire is the uncontrolled temperature that can be reached by arcing connections, since these can just go on getting hotter and hotter as their resistance rises.


Where a connection fails high-resistance, the parallel paths available in the RFC can replace a potential arcing scenario with a marginal conductor overload one, in which case it probably reduces the risk of fire. It does then reduce the likelihood of fault detection, but the very fact that we do find burnt terminals still in service shows that detection is not by any means guaranteed in use.
Is this where the debate of AFDDs when used in an RFC may not detect the series arc fault.
 
That's a relief, no need to worry about overloaded broken ring finals causing a fire.
Again, over the last 6 decades, how often do you hear a spark saying "oh, found another burnt out RFC today"?

Burnt out plugs/sockets, yes, but that is independent of the RFC/radial choice.
I would now assume that counts for 4 mm radials as well.
It would.

But there is a slight difference in designing to meet the regs (choice of cable, install method, and OCPD, etc) and worrying about a fault developing on a design that meets the regs.
 
Incidentally, did John Ward not do a video once that tried to burn out 2.5mm cable? Maybe testing the quality of Wagos, etc?

I vaguely remember it taking something quite large like 60 odd amps, etc.
 
Is this where the debate of AFDDs when used in an RFC may not detect the series arc fault.
As others have pointed out, the AFDD not detecting a series arc in the RFC is down to such an arc being practically impossible to start (as only ten or so volts difference if the ring breaks) and if on microscopic gap it does, it is not big enough to be a serious risk.

From your own experience, how often do you find burnt out joints, and of those you have, how many were on sockets of either system versus showers?
 
Again, over the last 6 decades, how often do you hear a spark saying "oh, found another burnt out RFC today"?

Burnt out plugs/sockets, yes, but that is independent of the RFC/radial choice.

It would.

But there is a slight difference in designing to meet the regs (choice of cable, install method, and OCPD, etc) and worrying about a fault developing on a design that meets the regs.

But surly in the design process the risk of a particular fault developing in the circuit choice has to be taken into account.
 
Incidentally, did John Ward not do a video once that tried to burn out 2.5mm cable? Maybe testing the quality of Wagos, etc?

I vaguely remember it taking something quite large like 60 odd amps, etc.
He did , I think he got around 60-70amps up a 2.5 before it started to get warm and around 80-90amps before it started smoking / melting. Yes it was a short length clipped direct but it shows how much overloading a cable clipped direct can actually take
 
I think Bic Nundy did a similar test again with a bit of old 2.5, iirc he did it with different types of cable pvc / lsf etc
Again kept pumping more amps up it until it started smoking. again it took a serious overload to get it to smoke
 
As others have pointed out, the AFDD not detecting a series arc in the RFC is down to such an arc being practically impossible to start (as only ten or so volts difference if the ring breaks) and if on microscopic gap it does, it is not big enough to be a serious risk.

From your own experience, how often do you find burnt out joints, and of those you have, how many were on sockets of either system versus showers?
Rare at sockets to be honest, but many JBS and shower pull cord types, mostly due to not using ones that have decent terminations.
 
As mentioned above, a 'series arc' in one leg of a ring won't really arc because there's hardly any voltage across it. If it doesn't arc, the AFDD won't find it. If it does arc, the AFDD will react and disconnect it. A loose terminal in a socket will arc on a ring just as as on a radial and the AFDD will find that too.
 
Rare at sockets to be honest, but many JBS and shower pull cord types, mostly due to not using ones that have decent terminations.
Its nearly always a burned out joint / terminal that is the issue , as you say usually a cheap carp accessory that burns out and not the actual cable itself.

I'm not anti-Ring, a well installed 30amp ring in 2.5 is bullet proof and will last a lifetime, its the gimps that infect the ring with spurs on spurs where the design faulters
 
I think Bic Nundy did a similar test again with a bit of old 2.5, iirc he did it with different types of cable pvc / lsf etc
Again kept pumping more amps up it until it started smoking. again it took a serious overload to get it to smoke
Maybe it should be tried with a 100 mtrs of 2.5 with terminated sockets jointed in.
 
Maybe it should be tried with a 100 mtrs of 2.5 with terminated sockets jointed in.
We did something at college with a 100mtr roll of 2.5 and pumped I think iirc 100amps up it on the roll and it took ages to get warm to the touch. It was to show a massive overload won't damage the insulation on the cable providing automatic disconnection of supply is achieved quickly.
 
I reiterate a 2.5mm 30amp ring is almost bullet proof if its actually a ring and its on a 30/32amp device.
I just find the ring concept a bit old fashioned and in a modern world of cheap cable and cheap consumer units the point of a ring to save money on cable no longer holds up imo
 
I reiterate a 2.5mm 30amp ring is almost bullet proof if its actually a ring and its on a 30/32amp device.
I just find the ring concept a bit old fashioned and in a modern world of cheap cable and cheap consumer units the point of a ring to save money on cable no longer holds up imo
When you go into a rewired property and there are 3 RFCs one up one down.

One in the kitchen with drops for the appliances.

Kettle. Microwave, dishwasher, washing machine, usb sockets, toaster, coffee machine etc etc.

Is this where the debate of segregation of circuits come in.
 

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