Ring, Radial or Both

[bigd]

Guys (and girls),

Just looking for a bit of advice regarding a re-wire, which I intend to use for my Elecsa Assessment.

I've been quite fortunate that I have a friend who's allowed me to complete a full re-wire on a small 2 bedroomed house. The house has been unoccupied and he's not in a rush to get the re-wire completed, so I've been able to gets lots of advice and take my time with the re-wire.

The question I have is regarding the new extension he's having built at the back. Its going to incorporate a medium sized kitchen and a small day room. I need some advice regarding whether I should be using a ring or radial circuit for the extension.

Obviously the cooker will be on a separate circuit. But what about sockets and fused spurs (fridge, dishwasher etc)? My course instructors (yes, yes I know zero to electrician in 4 weeks) preach the gospel of radial circuits. Ring circuits are dead, radials are the future and so on.....

But it seems to me that rings are an elegant solution to my problem.

I guess I'll be installing approx 12 double sockets in the whole of the extension, plus a dishwasher, fridge/freezer, dishwasher, tumble drier

What are your views?

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Haha...fair point, didn't consider RCD.

As an aside, if you were to touch both lives simultaneously on an RCD protected circuit do you think you'd get enough earth leakage for it to trip?

Would depend on your resistivity TBH.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Well just to and my 10 pence worth. The inspector that comes to see me every year from Elecsa told me he still prefers to see ring circuits.

oh and next you're going to tell me to stop earthing my metal back boxes!!!

What's your opinion on them though?

 

[davelerave]

i reckon they should be scrapped for domestic-because of the risk of overcurrent

due to breaks and unfused spurs over time

and kept for com and ind


what was that other ring cct screw-up again?-each leg of ring stuck into a separate breaker i think also leading to possible overcurrent situation

 

[BlueToBits]

BS7671 is my yardstick for safety. I recon that you can't go far wrong if you follow those regs rather than making up your own.

 

[ezzzekiel]

6 and 2x3 as far as im concerned

 

[roukel01]

What's your opinion on them though?

Personally I think there is a place in domestic wiring for both wiring methods, a well planned ring circuit can save money and provided it is inspected and altered by a competant electrician, I can see no reason to stop installing them.

As for back boxes, I always earth them regardless of whether they have a fixed lug or not.

 

[Spudnik]

I cant believe after everything that has happened over the last few days, we are still having issues.

Sort it out fellas.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I cant believe after everything that has happened over the last few days, we are still having issues.

Sort it out fellas.

?

I was just defending myself.

Or are you referring to something else?

 

[Des 56]

I cant believe after everything that has happened over the last few days, we are still having issues.

Sort it out fellas.

Jason,I have just read through the whole of this thread, and other than Widdler and Engineer 54 taking firm stances in the discussion,its been interesting but didn't seem volatile

Both of them know their onions and if they start having a verbal punch up, they will only end up knocking each other out

I like them both


Rings and radials that is

 

[Spudnik]

I have deleted a few posts, so it may now seem all is in order.

 

[electromonkey]

I have deleted a few posts, so it may now seem all is in order.

Ahhhh. So that's why it went a bit random in the middle. I don't know what Engineer54 was playing at, everyone knows if you wind up a Wookie, it'll pull your arms off!!!

Jason, Out of curiosity, if a member's name has a line through it, does that mean they've been forcibly removed from the forum?

Back to the OP.
As long as your installation conforms to regs and your design is suitable for its situation then I'm sure you'll fly through your assessment. Let us know how you get on.

 

[Engineer54]

Oh come on... that's a complete misenterpretation of what i said.
If a circuit is broken on a radial, 'ordinary person' identifies the loss of power and gets the electrician in.
If an open circuit occurs on a ring final, 'ordinary person' doesn't identify as no loss of power occurs and so the cables potentially overload.

I can't believe I've had to explain that.

The day it's installed, nothing. In 'x' amount of years, any number of factors can occur that will possibly affect the integrity of the ring final. That's why we carry out periodics.

Please share..

Widdler,

Sorry not to have replied yesterday, but i had my weekly report to complete, and time just run away with itself.

Seems that some have taken this debate as something of a personal fight between us, ....certainly that was not my intention, and i don't believe yours either!!


So before answering your points, i'd like to clear some points up from my side of things...

I have no particular prefference between radial circuits or ring circuits, they both serve a purpose and both have a place within any installation, including domestic, for the safe distribution of it's small power requirements.

Where I do have objections, is when those that should know better, start advocating that one type of circuit, is dangerous when it clearly isn't, and that is should be scrapped, which is to my my mind just pure nonsense. ...If this would be correct, then there would be preferences made within BS 7176, ...There is to my knowledge, NONE!! ...So my point is, ...who are you (as well as other lecturers) now training apprentices and trainees in our collages and training centres, to advocate your personal preferences over and above the standards laid out in the C&G curriculum?? As i've pointed out previously, Ring Circuits have been around now 50 years or more, and are as safe as any other circuit make-up, such as Radials when they are designed and installed correctly for their purpose...

As for your first point above, If written a bit more clearly there could be no misinterpretation on my part!! Yes i may have been a bit flippant in my reply, but i just found your response a weak justification for installing radials over rings, ...Sorry!!!

Your second point above, Surely that observation would also apply to Radials as well a Ring Circuits, ...Right?? Look, as electricians we design and install circuits to the best of our ability, following the current Regulations laid out in BS 7176. ....We have no control of what happens to that circuit(s) after we have left the installation. We are not responsible for the idiots and nutters that start altering previously safe installations into those that are then maybe not. It is also NOT our role as electricians in the great scheme of things, to be some form of electrical police, ...Nor should we be!!


Your last point. ...Ring circuits came about, to serve the purpose of being able to provide a means of safely supplying larger areas with small power distribution from a single circuit. Standard Radials circuits have never been particually suitable for providing small power distribution over larger area's. It was the Ring Circuit that also brought about the requirement of the fused plug top, (at that time, there was more than just one style of fused plug top) to give protection to appliance cords etc. Yes, the shortage of copper at that time, also had big implications to the final implementation and acceptance of the ring circuit, as it saved running many radials to cover the power requirements that a single ring could provide... Thereby also keeping CU sizes and fuse numbers down to a minimum. Also remember, that the Reg's were a little different at that time, as to the number of outlets allowed, on a single radial 15A and 5A power circuit... Almost forgot to mention, it was the ring circuit, that also introduced the 13A values to socket outlets...


Summing up, there should be no preferences given to either the ring circuit or the radial circuit. They both should be used/applied to as and when, to suit the requirements and conditions of the installation, ...and ''Never'' because one circuit is easier to test than the other. That is not a professional attitude to take, as is, teaching personal preferences to those that are in the early process of learning this trade...

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I still have lots of problems with the above, including assumptions and accusations of what I do in my classroom.But it's Friday and I can't be arsed.

 

[Engineer54]

I still have lots of problems with the above, including assumptions and accusations of what I do in my classroom.But it's Friday and I can't be arsed.

Not really assumptions and accusations, as i've only replied to what you have posted previously here. I am in the most part, talking in a general manner with regard to the present day training of trainee's and the like, i'm not singling you out in any way. I am well aware in many instances that you and others, are restricted in the scope of your training, due to the age old authorities excuse ....''lack of money available''