O
Octopus
Was he doing that when he was a Liberal?
Was he doing that when he was a Liberal?
A
andyelectric
Yes, Churchill was a Liberal at one point. But that was when they indulged in "laissez faire" liberalism akin to modern tory thinking. The Liberal reforms of the early 1900's were in coalition with the labour party and I wonder out of Lib/Lab who were committed to the reforms. And indeed Churchill later switched to the Tories as Labour became, more powerful and the Liberals were sidelined.
A
amckay
Winston Churchill's decisions won us the second world war. No doubt about it.
Now whether all the decisions he made were right or wrong, is another matter.
Many people simply do not know that Winston Churchill IS responsible for more wartime deaths than Adolf Hitler's concentration camps. In a bid to help the people of Britain, he diverted dozens upon dozens of merchant ships from India and sending them to UK. These ships were carrying foodstuffs and in aiding england to feed came the cost of dire malnourishment and starvation causing the death India around 6 million citizens in just 3years -that is more indians dead than Jews in the same timescale.
When I look at the state of the uk now, both financially and socially, I think I'd rather had lost the war and maybe things would be different now.
But Winston did what was best for his country, and he won. Kudos for that.
I also admire Adolf Hitler's actions in political term's but what he did to the Jews was unforgivable.
RIP Winston Churchill
Now whether all the decisions he made were right or wrong, is another matter.
Many people simply do not know that Winston Churchill IS responsible for more wartime deaths than Adolf Hitler's concentration camps. In a bid to help the people of Britain, he diverted dozens upon dozens of merchant ships from India and sending them to UK. These ships were carrying foodstuffs and in aiding england to feed came the cost of dire malnourishment and starvation causing the death India around 6 million citizens in just 3years -that is more indians dead than Jews in the same timescale.
When I look at the state of the uk now, both financially and socially, I think I'd rather had lost the war and maybe things would be different now.
But Winston did what was best for his country, and he won. Kudos for that.
I also admire Adolf Hitler's actions in political term's but what he did to the Jews was unforgivable.
RIP Winston Churchill
T
trev
Some other facts added to your original statement for added realism. Remember the "Give us the tools and we will do the job" speech?
A
amckay
Yes that's true
T
trev
The thing is mate, if I started a thread saying RIP Nye Bevan you would find something to find fault with him about and it would probably turn into something like this has.
I probably wouldn't complain about it though.
O
Octopus
A lot of people would say Nye who?
A
Adam W
I doubt it, it doesn't seem to happen that way around. When Thatcher died the left were jumping up and down, clapping their hands together and singing 'ding dong the witch is dead', but when Bob Crow died he was shown nothing but respect.
G
Guest77
Not just the left, most of the country, except the far right and the rich.
T
trev
Not strictly true though is it Adam, I certainly wasn't jumping up and down or clapping my hands. For all her faults she was still someone's mother and her children, no matter how disfunctional they may be, will still have felt the same pain that we all do when we lose a parent. I didn't lose sight of that and for all I didn't celebrate it, I certainly did not mourn her passing.
Bob Crow did not cast the same shadow over the political landscape that Thatcher did and perhaps that was the reason that the 2 deaths were handled differently by the media. I found both extremes of the way her death was handled to be very distasteful. On one hand you had a few people celebrating which was blown out of all proportion while on the other there was the fawning, sycophantic, arse licking and beatification of her by the likes of the Daily Fail. The crocodile tears of the tory party made me want to vomit
A
Adam W
Because they had morality issues.
Last edited by a moderator:
I completely concur with Trev,he outlined the reaction to Mrs Ts death to a tee
I have never had a good word to say about the woman as a politician because its as a politician that I and most people knew her
My judgement on that was she was an absolute disaster,but that is a personal opinion on her as the politician
As a fellow human being,I understood the sorrow that was felt by her family and friends at the loss of someone very dear to them
The Maggie bag celebration kit that was sold and bought was a disgrace and shame on people who acted in such a way
When someone posts up a thread on a forum in 50 years or so time reminding the members of the anniversary of her death
lets hope it is respectful but at the same time truthful
Remember her achievement's and also acknowledge her failures and/or shortcomings
The perception of either of them will obviously depend on each persons personal memory of her times
I have never had a good word to say about the woman as a politician because its as a politician that I and most people knew her
My judgement on that was she was an absolute disaster,but that is a personal opinion on her as the politician
As a fellow human being,I understood the sorrow that was felt by her family and friends at the loss of someone very dear to them
The Maggie bag celebration kit that was sold and bought was a disgrace and shame on people who acted in such a way
When someone posts up a thread on a forum in 50 years or so time reminding the members of the anniversary of her death
lets hope it is respectful but at the same time truthful
Remember her achievement's and also acknowledge her failures and/or shortcomings
The perception of either of them will obviously depend on each persons personal memory of her times
E
Engineer54
Obviously the ''Right'' ones!!
A
Adam W
A moderate pun if nothing else.
N
newtothis
All in vain - cos Merkel is calling the shots in Europe big-time, and we've been invaded by hostiles seeking to establish their own state within our state.
J
Jonspark
A reminder of some of Churchills less than noble ideas
Winston was a supporter of eugenics – the practice of improving the overall genetic quality of mankind – and while helping create the Mental Deficiency Act 1913, he drafted in that the feeble-minded should be sterilised instead of confined in institutions. This was changed before the Act was eventually passed into law.
As a young politician, Churchill was staunchly against votes for women
The disastrous Gallipoli landings on the Dardanelles during the First World War was the brainchild of Churchill, then First Lord of the Admiralty. The failed naval operation left some 34,000 British soldiers dead – while another 78,500 were wounded and a further 7,500 were captured or left missing.
. As soon as the war ended, Churchill began to plan for another attack. Branded Operation Unthinkable – the plan was ordered by Churchill and developed by the British Armed Forces. They predicted the Third World War could begin on July 1st 1945 with a sudden attack against the allied Soviet troops. However, the plan was quickly rejected by the British Chiefs of Staff Committee for being militarily unfeasible.
The above may help to give a more rounded insight into the man
However,even given his many deficiencies and privileges he was well respected by those at the time and is still well respected by many today
350 million watched his funeral,even the US audience for the British Second World War politician was larger than that for President Kennedy’s funeral, broadcast some 15 months earlier
Winston was a supporter of eugenics – the practice of improving the overall genetic quality of mankind – and while helping create the Mental Deficiency Act 1913, he drafted in that the feeble-minded should be sterilised instead of confined in institutions. This was changed before the Act was eventually passed into law.
As a young politician, Churchill was staunchly against votes for women
The disastrous Gallipoli landings on the Dardanelles during the First World War was the brainchild of Churchill, then First Lord of the Admiralty. The failed naval operation left some 34,000 British soldiers dead – while another 78,500 were wounded and a further 7,500 were captured or left missing.
. As soon as the war ended, Churchill began to plan for another attack. Branded Operation Unthinkable – the plan was ordered by Churchill and developed by the British Armed Forces. They predicted the Third World War could begin on July 1st 1945 with a sudden attack against the allied Soviet troops. However, the plan was quickly rejected by the British Chiefs of Staff Committee for being militarily unfeasible.
The above may help to give a more rounded insight into the man
However,even given his many deficiencies and privileges he was well respected by those at the time and is still well respected by many today
350 million watched his funeral,even the US audience for the British Second World War politician was larger than that for President Kennedy’s funeral, broadcast some 15 months earlier
A
Adam W
Yes, he lead us to victory in WW2.
A
Adam W
Can't sleep. Not specifically because of this, more likely the can of Red Bull I had earlier.
Des you will remember 'alarm man'.
I didn't agree with his political views but we had mutual respect for the way we argued each others perspectives and I feel his decision not to continue contributing to the forum was a loss to everyone, the same as we both missed 'Millwall Ken' when he decided to break from the forum.
I'm not saying either are on the same level as Churchill, but all deserve recognition here for their contributions.
Des you will remember 'alarm man'.
I didn't agree with his political views but we had mutual respect for the way we argued each others perspectives and I feel his decision not to continue contributing to the forum was a loss to everyone, the same as we both missed 'Millwall Ken' when he decided to break from the forum.
I'm not saying either are on the same level as Churchill, but all deserve recognition here for their contributions.
Y
YoungScud
You are, of course, right. Mussolini got the trains running on time, and Hitler was responsible for the birth of Volkswagen and the autobahns. Great guys.
Bored with the other forums, thought I'd resurrect this thread, if anyone's interested, not too old anyway. I ask my old man about Churchill for a school project, my Dad was a teenager during WWII. He said 'He was great PM during the war, we wouldn't have survived if it wasn't for him. Got us through a lot, galvanised us when we low, and thought we never see ourselves survive', précis of what I can remember. Then in the same breath me dad said 'He was a complete ******* though, that's why We booted him out soon after the war'. Horses for courses I suppose. I suppose if Hitler hadn't won power neither would of Churchill. But Churchill wasn't a fascist. Made some great speeches, lifted the spirits of the British people,my favourite; When accused by Bessie Braddock, a plump Labour MP of being 'disgustingly drunk' the Conservative Prime Minister responded: 'My dear, you are ugly, and what’s more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly.' :wink_smile:
B
Barrie Patrick
Someone famous once said that newspapers " Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" and this is exactly the same as I have been reading in the many posts here, lots of people repeating some truths, some half truths and/or myths and some down right lies, good or bad. The real truth is probably somewhere in between.
Personally Winston Churchill is a man I truely admire, my Dad was always moaning about him and we had many heated discussions about what Churchill did or didn't do or say. Winston Churchill was just a man and like all men he had good points and bad points, made great decisions and some really bad ones, and before anyone else says it I Don't mean the Dardenelles. As a Minister in Government he had to think of what was best for all the people and would have had to take many hard decisions in his career, just look how he didn't change how we defended Coventry because we had to protect Enigma and the fact we'd broken the German code, it was what had to be done but I couldn't have done it :-(
I have read many many books about Winston Churchill and depending on whether the author is pro Winston or Anti Winston will depend on how they interpret his actions.
The thing is he was a Victorian, he was an aristocrat, he did have a big ego and he was a self publicist and sometimes he jumped in where fools would fear to tread. Although an aristocrat and a decendant of the 1st Duke of Marlborough, strangly he was pretty poor by the standards of his peers at the time and always had to earn his own money mainly by his writing.
People say that he sent troops in against his own people, When, Where? Was it Ireland, to destroy freedom fighters? Was it Wales to beat up and physically hurt miners and their families? Or maybe it was to restore law and order? After all there is always 2 sides to an argument? His record when studied shows he wasn't actually against workers and by the standards of the day was pretty Liberal, when Chancellor in about 1912??? (Not Sure the exact year) he fought for and brought in the first Old Age Pension.
Churchill was definately talented, one of only a few people to hold the Order of Merit and a Companion of Honour. he wrote many books including the History of the Roman Empire, The History of the British Empire, he was a reasonable painter. It was Churchill who when 1st Sea Lord saw the potential of the Tank and agreed to pay for its developement. After the Campaign at Gallipoli went wrong Churchill took the full blame and resigned from the government because initially it had been his idea but others like Lord Fisher and Kitchener altered the details of the plan but Churchill took the blame. He went to France where he served in the trenches as battalion commander of 10th Royal Scots where his men much admired his bravery and ability but was brought back by LLyod George to be Minister of Supply where his work helped ensure the allies won the Great War. When he was appointed as Minister for Air in the 20's? he learned to fly.
It is rumoured, that after the 2nd World War the King said he wanted to make him a Lord but wondered what title would be enough to reflect all Churchill had done for this country, the King thought Lord of Great Britain was the only suitable title, Churchill turned it down because he wanted to do more work for his people and felt he could do it better as an MP. He was the only leader during the war who didn't accept an honour for his services. In about 1953 the Queen knighted him, he was going to refuse but didn't want to upset the new young Queen.
Now, even if you dont like what you know about him, I think most have to agree he was a very Talented man who generally served his country and the Majority of its people well?
Personally Winston Churchill is a man I truely admire, my Dad was always moaning about him and we had many heated discussions about what Churchill did or didn't do or say. Winston Churchill was just a man and like all men he had good points and bad points, made great decisions and some really bad ones, and before anyone else says it I Don't mean the Dardenelles. As a Minister in Government he had to think of what was best for all the people and would have had to take many hard decisions in his career, just look how he didn't change how we defended Coventry because we had to protect Enigma and the fact we'd broken the German code, it was what had to be done but I couldn't have done it :-(
I have read many many books about Winston Churchill and depending on whether the author is pro Winston or Anti Winston will depend on how they interpret his actions.
The thing is he was a Victorian, he was an aristocrat, he did have a big ego and he was a self publicist and sometimes he jumped in where fools would fear to tread. Although an aristocrat and a decendant of the 1st Duke of Marlborough, strangly he was pretty poor by the standards of his peers at the time and always had to earn his own money mainly by his writing.
People say that he sent troops in against his own people, When, Where? Was it Ireland, to destroy freedom fighters? Was it Wales to beat up and physically hurt miners and their families? Or maybe it was to restore law and order? After all there is always 2 sides to an argument? His record when studied shows he wasn't actually against workers and by the standards of the day was pretty Liberal, when Chancellor in about 1912??? (Not Sure the exact year) he fought for and brought in the first Old Age Pension.
Churchill was definately talented, one of only a few people to hold the Order of Merit and a Companion of Honour. he wrote many books including the History of the Roman Empire, The History of the British Empire, he was a reasonable painter. It was Churchill who when 1st Sea Lord saw the potential of the Tank and agreed to pay for its developement. After the Campaign at Gallipoli went wrong Churchill took the full blame and resigned from the government because initially it had been his idea but others like Lord Fisher and Kitchener altered the details of the plan but Churchill took the blame. He went to France where he served in the trenches as battalion commander of 10th Royal Scots where his men much admired his bravery and ability but was brought back by LLyod George to be Minister of Supply where his work helped ensure the allies won the Great War. When he was appointed as Minister for Air in the 20's? he learned to fly.
It is rumoured, that after the 2nd World War the King said he wanted to make him a Lord but wondered what title would be enough to reflect all Churchill had done for this country, the King thought Lord of Great Britain was the only suitable title, Churchill turned it down because he wanted to do more work for his people and felt he could do it better as an MP. He was the only leader during the war who didn't accept an honour for his services. In about 1953 the Queen knighted him, he was going to refuse but didn't want to upset the new young Queen.
Now, even if you dont like what you know about him, I think most have to agree he was a very Talented man who generally served his country and the Majority of its people well?
Y
YoungScud
He was a terrible brickie though.
Rubbish, look what he made here; Chartwell | National Trust
who's nicked the chimney pots?
They're being flogged off in the houses shop, as flower pots.
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