Rogue Installers

[SRE]

Theres nothing much you can do to stop bad installs....... sounds like you got to much time on your hands if your driving round checking other peoples jobs.

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Or maybe they are concerned about being tarred with the same brush ..... I'd be rich if I had a pound for every plumber that told me 15 years ago that condensing boilers were rubbish and there was nothing wrong with 25 year old boilers - oh and that solar wouldn't take off because it doesn't work. Apathy rules, that's why we have a coalition government, maybe if more people cared the standards would be higher - the query is just about the method not the deisre to improve on standards.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Or maybe they are concerned about being tarred with the same brush ..... I'd be rich if I had a pound for every plumber that told me 15 years ago that condensing boilers were rubbish and there was nothing wrong with 25 year old boilers - oh and that solar wouldn't take off because it doesn't work. Apathy rules, that's why we have a coalition government, maybe if more people cared the standards would be higher - the query is just about the method not the deisre to improve on standards.

The diffference between PV and condensing boilers is in the fact that you can physically obtain details on how much energy is saved by condensing boilers, unfortunately there is no such figures on how really efficient PV is because there are so many variables. At the moment we are working to averages taken over a set period of time, but no hard set figures.

The trouble with condensing boilers is with the installation of them. They require drainage, and as seen over the last 2 winters these have frozen up stopping the operation of the boiler.

With the increase size of the heat exchangers, and the use of first stainless and now aluminium, they can be 50% more expensive as conventional boilers, and becasue of the newness of aluminium there are not figures available on how long these will last in an operational enviroment.

It is accepted that with the energy saved by using condensing boilers recovery of the initial outlay should be achieved within 5-7 years.

Now PV the industry is working on returns where the most accuarate figures availalbe are guesstimates. There is no real ball park figure on how much yeild someone will get from an installation, as no one can forcast what the harvest conditions will be in May 2013, so we work to figures that have taken an average. As I pointed out here the last 2 winters in the UK have far exceeded the average in both snowfall, coldness and wetness, so how as a technology can you deliver an accurate return.

The only way to move forward with this was the FIT incentive and again I have no problem with this, only in the fact that the FIT tax is levied on to other energy users via higher prices. The government was certainly not going to foot the bill, and therefore the energy suppliers are passing on the tax to all the users, which IMO is wrong.

At this moment in time PV in the UK is not a viable energy resource unless it is heavily subsidised, and the subsidy is coming from people who can not afford to install 15-20k worth of installation. It is a levy on the less fortunate IMO and that is wrong.

The concept of PV a good idea, how are we going to achieve an efficient PV industry, that should still be something in a devlopment stage, is subsidising it the way forward, possibly, by a FIT that benefits a tiny proportion of society over the majority then no.

 

[MCS Renewables]

One of the other energy websites with a forum had a thread which exposed "Solartricity" to be the rebranded rogue installer "Ideal Solar" from Ringwood in Hampshire. This is the company who featured in a Which magazine report and Watchdog TV programme about rogue solar companies. This company is a national installer.
It has the same staff, the same building , is not in REAL or the MCS and is continuing to rip off consumers.

The thread has had to be temporarily removed as the Solartricity lawyers are "unhappy" with the content.
So even if you try to expose the rogues they can use the law to help them and continue to rip people off.

If anyone can help with any provable facts, pictures, stories, info about Ideal solar now being Solartricity please pm me as soon as possible and I will pass it on. Thanks

 

[SRE]

Malcolm I think you missed my point -

1) Maintaining the status quo isn't always the best stand - which is what you suggest by not doing anything
2) By maintaining the status quo good installers inevitably end up being linked with bad. I've been at many meetings where excellent installers have been branded in the same category as bad because no-one had the balls to disrupt the status quo.

I disagree with you about condensing boilers but that is not a discussion for a solar thread about rogue installers. My point was to illustrate that "old school" isn't always "best school" just because it's been going for a long time.

Positive support to help those not meeting MCS/REAL criteria should be encouraged rather than non compliance being ignored.

 

[sparky3366]

So a hypothetical question for you all then. Would you inform the customer if a so called electrician changed their CU from an old wylex 3036 to a new board with 60898 breakers but no rcd protection? Its better than the old board but not compliant...no certs or inspections done all for £180.00.

 

[topquark]

If the CU is changed it MUST be up to current regs (at least dual RCD), so yes that would be a violation. Would I report it, probably not, but I would inform the client so they can decide whether they wish to. If it was reported would LABC do anything about it, probably not.

 

[goodwilld]

I would reprot them to - Trading Standards, MCS and REAl that will sort the cowboys out!!!!

 

[judgeelectrical]

i think Worcester has a very good point here. Its no good turning a blind eye, why should we have to comply with all facets of the regulations, do your job correctly , and get beaton on a quote by someone who just lashes it in and clears off. I ve seen one really messy install which to be quite honest made me feel ill . We need to protect our work , price and industry by outing the cowboys ,

report um all

Keep up the gppd work

 

[malcolmsanford]

Is shoddy workmanship, cowboys and lash ups a new concept? As long as there as been an electrical industry, building , plumbing or whatever you will be undercut and work will be taken off you by the shoody contractor, that is human nature, some customesr wants the cheapest he can get everytime, the rest are discerning enough to know that cheapest does not equate to best.

The only way to really counteract it is to maintain your own standards and unless PV is completely different, the majority of your work will be referrals, as the majority of all electrical work is.

Im not sure what the REAL. MCS or any other body scope of responibiliy is, but is it to police the standards of installations and if it is what powers have they got to to maintain a standard, and more to the point what desire, as they like all the bogus schemes in our industry rely on contributions from the contractor, and I would imagine they would be loathe to remove a paying member from their charge becasue a panel overhangs a roof, or the cables are not going through the roof 100% correct.

 

[judgeelectrical]

I am not saying you should go around searcing for shoddy workmanship, but if i came across it , why not report it to the relavant bodies, after all , what are they there for , i would of thought to up hold standards. It takes a massive ammount of time effort and money to qualify for the MCS , so standards should be maintained.

 

[SRE]

I'm not sure i understand your logic Malcolm are you saying that because it's always been like that it should stay like that? Maybe scientists should have left dna where it was after all we didn't need it before did we .....

 

[malcolmsanford]

I'm not sure i understand your logic Malcolm are you saying that because it's always been like that it should stay like that? Maybe scientists should have left dna where it was after all we didn't need it before did we .....

Im not saying that at all, what Im asking is what are the MCS and REAL prepared to do. If they are going to take the line that poor workmanship or installations will not be condoned, then are they going to prosecute, and if they do when they get someone in a court of law, what standards are they going to present to say that a certain contractor as not upheld these standards.

It is easy for people to decry standards or workmanship, it is a totally different ball game to prove that one persons installation is below a standard that to my knowledge does not exist. Because someone says that is poor, is it? and what evidence do they base that on, it looks poor, I would not do that? ..................is there a book or guide that uphelds and proports a certain standard?

The OP was down to someone driving around and just from a physical observation decided that 4 installations were "sub standard", and my point is in what way is it? Becasue they would not have installed it that way?

As far as Im aware the REAL ensure that you dont sell a system with bogus information, and the MCS is basically a scheme that will allow your system acreditation to recieve the FIT.

I Know that the PV side of our industry is new, and it seems that you guys want to do work to standards, which I endorse. I have been in the industry 40 years and as I said during that whole time there will be people who will undercut you and do work that you consider poor.

Let me ask one thing if you did call the MCS and REAL with a complaint that you have observed an installation that is in your opinion is of a poor standard, what will they do?

 

[SRE]

Have done and it was greatfully received. Real have asked for more information I've reported misselling and poor installations in 3 circumstances. It wasn't petty stuff but serious breaches that I have come across during my work. Not sure what happened after the call but Real said they couldn't do anything without actual jobs to visit, companies to do checks on - they appreciated specific information rather than hearsay.

 

[Ramjam]

I implore you all to write to REAL and demand that they put a procedure in place to receive complaints about REAL members from REAL members.

REAL will tell you that they are very interested to hear about complaints about members from members and that they will take them seriously. They are not taking them seriously unless they have a procedure that we can see that they follow.

The renewables industry has the possibility to cast out cowboys, never before has a new domestic trade been so tightly regulated. If we lobby REAL to tackle rogue installers then they are in a position to police the industry. We pay their salaries, they should do their job.

REAL code requires complainace with MCS, MCS requires complieance with the DTI guide and BS7671. In all of these documents there is enough ammo to shoot down any shabby install as non-compliant with the REAL code. Non-compliance leads to suspension/expulsion or for minor infringments remdiation and close observation. The rules are already in place, we all need to lobby REAL to do their job.

DO IT NOW, SEND AN EMAIL TO [email protected] to demand that they put in place a transparent procedure to deal with complaints from members.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I implore you all to write to REAL and demand that they put a procedure in place to receive complaints about REAL members from REAL members.

REAL will tell you that they are very interested to hear about complaints about members from members and that they will take them seriously. They are not taking them seriously unless they have a procedure that we can see that they follow.

The renewables industry has the possibility to cast out cowboys, never before has a new domestic trade been so tightly regulated. If we lobby REAL to tackle rogue installers then they are in a position to police the industry. We pay their salaries, they should do their job.

REAL code requires complainace with MCS, MCS requires complieance with the DTI guide and BS7671. In all of these documents there is enough ammo to shoot down any shabby install as non-compliant with the REAL code. Non-compliance leads to suspension/expulsion or for minor infringments remdiation and close observation. The rules are already in place, we all need to lobby REAL to do their job.

DO IT NOW, SEND AN EMAIL TO [email protected] to demand that they put in place a transparent procedure to deal with complaints from members.

So we are in a situation here where unlike the complaints procedure of other Electrical schemes where it is the client that can make a complaint as in the Part P, the REAL scheme is looking for fellow members of the industry to police it.

So we could have a situation of gestapo type contractors that have lost out on a job, and decide that they are not happy with the winning contractors work and file a complaint. If at worse it is a bogus complaint it will get the winning contractor losing time filling in a myriad of forms and questionaires that something like this will generate, and so affecting his business. Because as sure as eggs are eggs these acreditation schemes will love a form and questionaire.

I've read the REAL code of practice and in the section marked design installation it just refers you back to section 2.3 which then refers you back to the MCS acreditation, which from there directs you to your scheme providor.............so it will be like the Part P standard, where I think in the 6 odd years the schemes have been running, I don't personally know of anyone being kicked out of one, and I would imagine very few throughout the country have.

So the REAL do not have an actual standard of workmanship, they will leave that to the schemes to decide, and as any contractor in the industry is paying well over 500 pounds a year to be a member of a scheme, I'm pretty sure they will not be in an hurry to throw out a cash cow ........................

Welcome guys to Part P ..........becasue that is what you have in reality and what I have been advocating all along, it's a good idea, a wonderful chance, that will never ever come to fruitition as long as independant schemes run as a profit making institution.