Running cable in a new build.

[Breaker]

I was working with a contractor as part of my Electrical Trainee course and we were wiring a new build.

I noticed that the time served and apprentice trained sparky was telling me to run the cables through and around rsj's and into un-accesable places. I mentioned to him that if he would have to come back to this property in 20 years would he find it easy to work on because of where he has run the cables. He shrugged his shoulders and said it's quicker this way.

I was trained on my Electrical Trainee course to think ahead and it's also good practice to think about future sparky's who may have to work on the property while carrying out additional work. I mentioned to him it would be better to run the cable under the floorboards but he didn't want to drill the holes.

So is it best to think like a Electrical Trainee and plan ahead or like the apprentice trained sparky, do it the easiest and quickest way?

Thanks.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Hardly a suitable response is it?

Perfectly suitable response if you don't believe a word of what this Electrical Trainee troll is saying

 

[MDJ]

The problem is I think both the "5 week" course and the "apprentice" route will have been shown/taught the correct way to do things but in reality corners are cut for ease/lazyness and/or to save money! Not saying it is in this case because we dont know the specifics of the install but who hasn't come across work where you've sat back and thought, this isnt right ......

- - - Updated - - -



.

My Point fella was if he is still in training on a 5 week course then he has not reached 5 weeks yet hense my reply, no malice intended at all towards the OP.

 

[Breaker]

My Point fella was if he is still in training on a 5 week course then he has not reached 5 weeks yet hense my reply, no malice intended at all towards the OP.

I completed my five weeks last June. I started my 5 weeks 2 years before that. In that time I have been working on and off for free and I have only just applied for my first job as a sparky. The company I had the interview with know the score and will be training me with more experienced sparky's and not paying me as much, of course. I know the score, they know the score, seems that you guy's don't though.

 

[MDJ]

I completed my five weeks last June. I started my 5 weeks 2 years before that. In that time I have been working on and off for free and I have only just applied for my first job as a sparky. The company I had the interview with know the score and will be training me with more experienced sparky's and not paying me as much, of course. I know the score, they know the score, seems that you guy's don't though.

I have forgotten more than you will ever learn fella' I was trying to be nice' but if you want to discuss qualifications and experience I would be happy to stick my gloves on

 

[Breaker]

I have forgotten more than you will ever learn fella' I was trying to be nice' but if you want to discuss qualifications and experience I would be happy to stick my gloves on

Please stop taking everything I say the wrong way.
:wink_smile:

 

[MDJ]

Okay fella

 

[Geordie Spark]

I'm not even sure that choosing a cable route even comes into a Electrical Trainee-v-TimeServed contest....(compliance with regs assumed either way) it's just common sense and practicality, surely?

I've seen some old boys lay cable really stupidly!!

I was trying my best and it was the way me Grandad showed me, but he was a carpenter.

( Me Granny was no lady though. )

 

[Breaker]

Oh well, every time I come on here I will be called a troll now so no point really. All the best everyone and thanks to those who didn't take everything I said the wrong way.

 

[Andy78]

Please come back when you have learnt to accept criticism, express yourself clearly, and not spit your dummy, as this is a very informative forum that could help expand your knowledge base as you gain experience.

 

[Rockingit]

THIS THREAD is a prime example of what was being referred to in this one: http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...its-unprofessional-not-funny-forum-going.html (apologies to those that can't see it as it's in the Arms).

I think several of you should go away and have a decent think about exactly why you are here, and how, exactly, you have helped a new member who came here quite honestly, openly and with a decent enough question.

 

[MDJ]

I completed my five weeks last June. I started my 5 weeks 2 years before that. In that time I have been working on and off for free and I have only just applied for my first job as a sparky. The company I had the interview with know the score and will be training me with more experienced sparky's and not paying me as much, of course. I know the score, they know the score, seems that you guy's don't though.

Sorry my reply earlier was just an okay fella as I was on my I-phone and I do not like texting on it. After seeing this reply from you I now understand your original OP a little better. Perhaps in Hindsight it may have been better if you had given us a little more information in the OP. Now you have confirmed you have at least 2 years experience I would have replied to your OP in a different way than my first reply which favoured the Time served apprentice. As for my second reply you did assume I knew less than you as you suggested "you knew" but "I didn't" regarding rules about cable containment and installation Methods. I would suggest you come back forget what has happened thus far in the thread, firstly because it is now a different thread now we have more information from you, and secondly it was an interesting OP which quickly got out of hand due to a lack of information mentioned in the OP.

 

[MDJ]

I think several of you should go away and have a decent think about exactly why you are here,.

I am not going anywhere unless the team Ban me. If they do after reading my replies here then it will be unjust. If you read My first reply it was a genuine and honest reply to the question, My other reply before the one above this reply was due to suggestions I did not know as much as him regarding installation method. I have replied now regarding that and feel it was not rude, not offensive, racist, homophobic or indeed any form of internet bullying. I would like to reply a little more regarding your post but would most definitely offend you which I would not want to do.

 

[guest119]

Looking at the big picture Breaker, you admit to being a Electrical Trainee looking for a shortcut into the industry and come on here to ask for advice so that you can go and take our jobs from us.
Does that sum up your intention and maybe explain some of the hastle?
You may, or then again may not, get a more sympathetic response on the diy section.

Boydy

 

[Octopus]

Back to the OP, I actually applaud his honesty and the way he positioned the question... and to this extent many other members could well learn. So carry on learning, and next time you see this sort of dodgy wiring, whip out your phone and take a picky or 2 then post them.

People assume that 15th, 16th or 17th educated means you follow the rules but many don't and won't change.

The forum will help those who ask questions in a constructive way - don't be put off.

 

[MDJ]

Back to the OP, I actually applaud his honesty and the way he positioned the question... .

like this=
So is it best to think like a Electrical Trainee and plan ahead or like the apprentice trained sparky, do it the easiest and quickest way?
I know they train apprentices different today than 20 years ago with NVQS etc, but I didn't realise only people taking short courses were trained properly.

 

[Octopus]

like this=
So is it best to think like a Electrical Trainee and plan ahead or like the apprentice trained sparky, do it the easiest and quickest way?
I know they train apprentices different today than 20 years ago with NVQS etc, but I didn't realise only people taking short courses were trained properly.

I'm not looking for an argument but the way I read it was that a Electrical Trainee had a better idea about cable runs in walls than 2 very time served sparks. That's all.

 

[MDJ]

I'm not looking for an argument but the way I read it was that a Electrical Trainee had a better idea about cable runs in walls than 2 very time served sparks. That's all.

Me neither fair enough. Without seeing the install as Darkwood mentioned in post 2 which I also mentioned though it is difficult to know what actually happened, I have said before here that I don't feel like I used any malice in my reply in post 3 to the OP, and everything else has just escalated now and got silly, I will leave this be now, it may well be the case that the time served sparks work was not actually as bad as it has been made out to be, a picture speaks a thousand words.

 

[Octopus]

Me neither fair enough. Without seeing the install as Darkwood mentioned in post 2 which I also mentioned though it is difficult to know what actually happened, I have said before here that I don't feel like I used any malice in my reply in post 3 to the OP, and everything else has just escalated now and got silly, I will leave this be now, it may well be the case that the time served sparks work was not actually as bad as it has been made out to be, a picture speaks a thousand words.

Well.... it started off by a question about cable runs and nobody decides on a new cable run which involves drilling more joists than necessary .... so I read the OP as if he wanted other opinions on how things get decided. As for the muppets he describes ....... they should know better.

 

[MDJ]

they should know better.

What is wrong with running cables around an RSJ if it is then boxed in and the cables hidden if they are protected by RCD? no different than stud partitioning surely? Admittedly I would avoid that method myself and consider an alternative route because I would not personally like to install cables in that way, however are the sparks really muppets for doing it that way? as I mentioned a picture speaks a thousand words, it may well be the Job is a total balls up and they are muppets, but running cables in a void which is what it would be if they were enclosed around a RSJ and hidden by plaster board which is fixed to wooden noggins around it is not against the regs is it?

 

[Breaker]

Looking at the big picture Breaker, you admit to being a Electrical Trainee looking for a shortcut into the industry and come on here to ask for advice so that you can go and take our jobs from us.
Does that sum up your intention and maybe explain some of the hastle?
You may, or then again may not, get a more sympathetic response on the diy section.

Boydy

I think that sums up your attitude perfectly. Unfortunately not mine. When all the new guys have gone and wont join this forum you are all going to start on each other. That's how most forums on the internet end up. You are going the same way. Like I said, all the best and I am out of here you will be glad to know. I will get my advise face to face with sparky's in the future because you don't get all this ********.

 

[Hawkmoon]

THIS THREAD is a prime example of what was being referred to in this one: http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...its-unprofessional-not-funny-forum-going.html (apologies to those that can't see it as it's in the Arms).

I think several of you should go away and have a decent think about exactly why you are here, and how, exactly, you have helped a new member who came here quite honestly, openly and with a decent enough question.

I agree with you on this - particularly with regard to the unnecessary personal abuse present in some threads but...


...consider this thread:

The OP began with a vague cable routing issue that was 'troubling' him and then implied that his Electrical Trainee training was superior to that of the time served electricians he is working with.

The responses he got were mostly reasoned and some rightly questioned the OP's experience in making these judgements of the installation methods he had seen.

At this point the OP realizes that the thread is 'not going his way' and comes up with:
1) JBs behind plasterboard
2) Cables run outside safe zones

These two issues are clearly non-compliant (both taught on Electrical Trainee courses) so why did he not mention these upfront in post 1? - rather than the vague 'consideration to future electricians' issue!

To me this is another Electrical Trainee trying to defend the indefensible.


p.s. Just noticed one of these course providers offering DI in 18 Days (linked from this site) - that's 3.electrical trainee lol (have to laugh or I may cry)

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Hawwwkkkk Mooooooooooon! There it's out of my system.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Deleted.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Hawwwkkkk Mooooooooooon! There it's out of my system.

I know my posts are outstanding but - wailing in worship?? - you flatter me sir

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Haha I just can't get enough!

 

[Engineer54]

I think that sums up your attitude perfectly. Unfortunately not mine. When all the new guys have gone and wont join this forum you are all going to start on each other. That's how most forums on the internet end up. You are going the same way. Like I said, all the best and I am out of here you will be glad to know. I will get my advise face to face with sparky's in the future because you don't get all this ********.

But according to you, the sparky's you've been with so far don't know what their doing!!

More to the point, what happens when all the apprentice trained, fully qualified electricians have gone from the industry, and all were left with are electrical trainee's and 17 day whizz kids??

Where are you lot gonna be then, ??

 

[MDJ]

But according to you, the sparky's you've been with so far don't know what their doing!!

More to the point, what happens when all the apprentice trained, fully qualified electricians have gone from the industry, and all were left with are electrical trainee's and 17 day whizz kids??

Where are you lot gonna be then, ??

Up the creek without a paddle, I would love to see these colleges wire up a show house with every core in the house in one colour and give these Electrical Trainee 2 days to second fix armed only with a meggar and some numbered labells, that will sort them out.

 

[Rockingit]

^^^ More like up sh** creek without a paddle!!

BUT....and I'm not trying in any way shape or form to justify or uphold the OP's argument (I don't know him, haven't seen what he was referring to and can't see what's in it for me)...to play devil's advocate;

I did a few jobs a little while back for a domestic customer, and whilst they were still on-going they had an extension built and more by accident than design the builder brought in their own normal sparks to do that stuff (no probs). So for a while there were two of us working on site doing different stuff. The other spark was an old school time served sparks much older than me and from an A.C. business that's been going since time began. The technical quality of work was appalling! No apparent up to date knowledge of regs, JB's everywhere..and so on. I signed off my stuff and got the heck out of Dodge very quickly!!

So....when I see an OP from my neck of the woods re-counting a similar experience, you can understand why I'd be a little lenient and want to know some more before casting judgement.

 

[UNG]

I was working with a contractor as part of my Electrical Trainee course and we were wiring a new build.

I noticed that the time served and apprentice trained sparky was telling me to run the cables through and around rsj's and into un-accesable places. I mentioned to him that if he would have to come back to this property in 20 years would he find it easy to work on because of where he has run the cables. He shrugged his shoulders and said it's quicker this way.

I was trained on my Electrical Trainee course to think ahead and it's also good practice to think about future sparky's who may have to work on the property while carrying out additional work. I mentioned to him it would be better to run the cable under the floorboards but he didn't want to drill the holes.

So is it best to think like a Electrical Trainee and plan ahead or like the apprentice trained sparky, do it the easiest and quickest way?

Thanks.

So is this forward thinking teaching some thing that only Electrical Trainee's are taught, without seeing the site you are working on I can only suggest that it is a classroom v's site thing that has not been properly explained on site and reasons given for the methods used.

The problem is I think both the "5 week" course and the "apprentice" route will have been shown/taught the correct way to do things but in reality corners are cut for ease/lazyness and/or to save money! Not saying it is in this case because we dont know the specifics of the install but who hasn't come across work where you've sat back and thought, this isnt right ......

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Damn, you're probably right but even so .........

One persons "it isn't right" does not necessarily it is wrong you only have to look at the EICR discussions on here for the differing opinions

We did all the costing stuff as part of the course, clients budgets, being competitive, etc, etc. But would it not be worth the extra time because after all it may be yourself that is called back for future additional work. Saving you time and your client money.

But yeah, may have not been the best company to get experience from. When I do anything that I think is wrong I get indigestion......

So a 5 week course is not all electrical based then. I seem to recall project planning etc in years 4 and 5 when I did it

What, Im totally shocked! There are time served electricans electricians out there that havent kept up to-date with currrent regs ..... someone best inform UNG of this as he doesn't know of any electricians who are not aware of the 16th and 17th edition regs and who have not evolved their skill set as the industry has changed and new products have come to market.

Badged01 IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ME USE THE FULL TEXT DON'T ATTRIBUTE SOMETHING TO ME WITH A SELECTIVELY EDITED TEXT THAT CREATES A MISQUOTE

 

[Engineer54]

The other spark was an old school time served sparks much older than me and from an A.C. business that's been going since time began. The technical quality of work was appalling! No apparent up to date knowledge of regs, JB's everywhere..and so on.

Every trade has these rogue tradesmen, they mainly come from rogue type company's that trained them too!! Don't always believe that these old boy's are fully qualified either, i've come across one or two that have been winging it for years. lol!!

 

[dingledong]

the papers have been doing that misquote for years

 

[shanky887614]

Every trade has these rogue tradesmen, they mainly come from rogue type company's that trained them too!! Don't always believe that these old boy's are fully qualified either, i've come across one or two that have been winging it for years. lol!!

That is true, the firm im doing my time with have only two sparks that do things the right way.

The worst offender is about 50 and his work is best described as rough/verging on dangerous.

The dangerous ones are the type that no longer give a **** about there install

 

[Geordie Spark]

Every trade has these rogue tradesmen, they mainly come from rogue type company's that trained them too!! Don't always believe that these old boy's are fully qualified either, i've come across one or two that have been winging it for years. lol!!

Bugger !! ............... rumbled again. :hump:

 

[Breaker]

As for a short cut into the industry. I started in 1980 age 13 helping my old man instal kitchens and bathrooms at the weekend. Probably before some of you were born though. I used to earn £12 a day doing that, big money for a 13 year old in 1980.........

I remember Burt and Alan the electricians, Alan taught me to play the guitar as well, Paddy the bricky and plasterer and my old man was the plumber. They all worked as maintenance men at Boosey and Hawkes. They were all skilled trades men they worked as maintenance men because the money was more regular.

I got three years in before I even left school. I joined New Career Skills under the assumption of what they told me. It's for mature students that already have heaps of experience and the only thing they are lacking is qualifications.

But I did notice that the students there were getting younger and younger as I progressed. They were the ones that were struggling with the speed of the course because of their lack of experience. They would of been more suited to an apprenticeship. New Career skills started out with the best intentions but they lost their way. I can't help that it's out of my hands as is your impression of me.

 

[mechelec]

As for a short cut into the industry. I started in 1980 age 13 helping my old man instal kitchens and bathrooms at the weekend. Probably before some of you were born though. I used to earn £12 a day doing that, big money for a 13 year old in 1980.........

I remember Burt and Alan the electricians, Alan taught me to play the guitar as well, Paddy the bricky and plasterer and my old man was the plumber. They all worked as maintenance men at Boosey and Hawkes. They were all skilled trades men they worked as maintenance men because the money was more regular.

I got three years in before I even left school. I joined New Career Skills under the assumption of what they told me. It's for mature students that already have heaps of experience and the only thing they are lacking is qualifications.

But I did notice that the students there were getting younger and younger as I progressed. They were the ones that were struggling with the speed of the course because of their lack of experience. They would of been more suited to an apprenticeship. New Career skills started out with the best intentions but they lost their way. I can't help that it's out of my hands as is your impression of me.

i thought you was going ?