Safety! Am I really that old???

[vxwestie]

This is a little tongue and cheek, but at 42 I'm beginning to feel like a bit of a dinosaur in the trade when it comes to safety.
Whilst I appreciate the need to obey the rules and lunacy of the big sites, but is there any of use originals still left that use common sense over rules?

is there anyone still like me that goes to work wearing trainers and not steelies? Uses aluminium steps and ladders without fall arrest and fixings for the bottom? Is there anyone else who has never worn a hard hat for a day in their life, works on live equipment daily, walks on the bare rafters in the loft space, doesn't own ear defenders or goggles? Climbs on a chair, pallet, bucket or anything practical when being too lazy to walk to the van? Has never seen a 'risk assessment' let alone completed one! Has had the same 'hi viz' waistcoat in its wrappings for the last 5yrs?
Does anyone else still have the skill to use a shape Stanley knife? Does anyone else still trust their instincts of only do what is permitted by laws and regulations?
Does anyone else never wear gloves and use bits of cardboard and insulation tape to stop the flow of the red stuff?

Is there anyone else out there that were taught to use their common sense and still managing to be alive after 20+ years in the trade? Or am I the only survivor?

 

[Barry White]

When I think back, and remember using a chasing machine, without extraction, and with no mask or glasses, I can't actually believe it. Same as chasing sockets and breathing all of that in, and getting stones fly into your eyes. Madness really. I'm also convinced that fibreglass dust is far from safe, especially the old stuff.

I am in the same oppinion about fibreglass Its the adbestos of the future

 

[YoungScud]

Well, lots of different views in this thread!
Its obvious too that some people really are going too soft! For me safety is a personal thing, and my safety is my responsibility and no-one else. I will never rely on someone else to ensure my safety. It's my judgement as far as I'm concerned, if I trust myself not to be stupid enough to stand on a nail or drop something on my feet then I will continue to wear trainers, if I trust myself not to be stupid enough to work underneath someone working above me, I will continue not to wear a hard hat. If I trust myself not to be stupid enough to touch something live, then I'll continue to work on live apparatus. If a job is possible from a ladder or steps then i will make the job as easy and as cost effective as possible by doing so.
My personal safety is just that. Personal and as much as I can, I will be the one to judge what is safe and what is not. Afterall, I'm a qualified and experience operative, no-one knows better than i do.



edited to add,
my own reply has gotten me thinking.... Perhaps those who rely on safety and insist on the removal of all risk really are not capable of making the correct judgements for themselves or have the ability or confidence to be in control of their own well being?[/QUOTE]


Here's the problem. No matter how you see it, safety is not a personal issue, it's at least in part a legal one, and with good reason. Without H&S legislation, how many more accidents do you think might happen? It's a hard one to judge, to be sure, so all we can really rely on is statistics from before and after safety began to be taken seriously, and that's all one way traffic. There is absoloutely no doubt whatsoever that sharing responsibility for safety between employers and employees has been a success in terms of numbers of accidents. H&S law ensures several things, none more important than its ability to stop unscrupulous employers from making unreasonable demands on their employees. It has given the employee the right to say, "No", to unsafe practices. It also gives a measure of protection to, for instance, tenants whose landlords might not otherwise give any thought to their safety.

It has never been suggested, at any time, that all risk can be removed. Health and Safety legislation doesn't even pretend to do that. What it does do, for the most part, is attempt to limit risk to individuals as much as it can. In fact, were it possible to eliminate all risk, PPE would be redundant, since it's really designed as a last line of defence against residual risk after all possible risks have been eliminated, isolated or removed. It was never intended that the law should replace personal risk assessment, but it is necessary, as a glance at accident stats before its introduction will show. It's never about you, it's about us.

As to the highligted section, it's exactly because most of us do care about our own health and those of us affected by our actions that we follow sensible principles. By the way, I'd love to know who those that "insist on the removal of all risk" are. I've never met one yet.

 

[vxwestie]

Well, lots of different views in this thread!
Its obvious too that some people really are going too soft! For me safety is a personal thing, and my safety is my responsibility and no-one else. I will never rely on someone else to ensure my safety. It's my judgement as far as I'm concerned, if I trust myself not to be stupid enough to stand on a nail or drop something on my feet then I will continue to wear trainers, if I trust myself not to be stupid enough to work underneath someone working above me, I will continue not to wear a hard hat. If I trust myself not to be stupid enough to touch something live, then I'll continue to work on live apparatus. If a job is possible from a ladder or steps then i will make the job as easy and as cost effective as possible by doing so.
My personal safety is just that. Personal and as much as I can, I will be the one to judge what is safe and what is not. Afterall, I'm a qualified and experience operative, no-one knows better than i do.



edited to add,
my own reply has gotten me thinking.... Perhaps those who rely on safety and insist on the removal of all risk really are not capable of making the correct judgements for themselves or have the ability or confidence to be in control of their own well being?[/QUOTE]


Here's the problem. No matter how you see it, safety is not a personal issue, it's at least in part a legal one, and with good reason. Without H&S legislation, how many more accidents do you think might happen? It's a hard one to judge, to be sure, so all we can really rely on is statistics from before and after safety began to be taken seriously, and that's all one way traffic. There is absoloutely no doubt whatsoever that sharing responsibility for safety between employers and employees has been a success in terms of numbers of accidents. H&S law ensures several things, none more important than its ability to stop unscrupulous employers from making unreasonable demands on their employees. It has given the employee the right to say, "No", to unsafe practices. It also gives a measure of protection to, for instance, tenants whose landlords might not otherwise give any thought to their safety.

It has never been suggested, at any time, that all risk can be removed. Health and Safety legislation doesn't even pretend to do that. What it does do, for the most part, is attempt to limit risk to individuals as much as it can. In fact, were it possible to eliminate all risk, PPE would be redundant, since it's really designed as a last line of defence against residual risk after all possible risks have been eliminated, isolated or removed. It was never intended that the law should replace personal risk assessment, but it is necessary, as a glance at accident stats before its introduction will show. It's never about you, it's about us.

As to the highligted section, it's exactly because most of us do care about our own health and those of us affected by our actions that we follow sensible principles. By the way, I'd love to know who those that "insist on the removal of all risk" are. I've never met one yet.

Whats a "risk assessment"?

 

[vxwestie]

The problem is actually that the H&S laws are destroying the trade and infact society in general. Of course safety should be a personal issue.

The ONLY people that benifet from the H&S laws and requirements are those who have manufactured work for themselves by creating them and the businesses who have jumped on the band wagon created by it. The general worker who is sensible and trained is hampered by the restrictions enforced upon him, the 'newby' or trainee into the trade is denied the right to be responsible for himself and enforced to rely on the requirements, they will never be granted the chance to apply common sense and as a result will be hampered by it. The businesses are ladened with the burden of the responsibilities and threats and last of all the customers/public are ultimately the ones who have to foot the cost.

I may be a dinosaur but I have been around the block a time or two and in my time in the trade I have trained many, many apprentices and employed many good men. But as a small business I will now NEVER employ or train again purely because of the H&S implications, and i certainly aren't the only one.

 

[Englishman]

Only read the first post (atm) but you have a really good point!

A few weeks ago I cut my finger down to the bone with a hacksaw! The 18 year old apprentice said "I'll get the first aid kit from your van". I just laughed and got blue tape from my toolbox. Well..... you have to use blue, the flow of blood has now been neutralized :rofl:

ok...fine...the first aid kit would have been better (I'm a first Aider and should know better lol) but it was a simple and clean cut, bit of tape and carry on regardless. The look on his face was priceless!! Just tape it up and get on with the job ffs.

Wrapping tape round a bad cut is probably the best thing you can do because it compresses the wound and stops it bleeding. Have always done it. Was putting a Bosch speed spade bit through a bit of pic window board last year when it snatched, jumped, and landed square on a finger nail. Gritted teeth, shoved the apprentice out of my way and tightly wrapped it, and the pain was gone within seconds. It's brilliant.

 

[shanky887614]

Wrapping tape round a bad cut is probably the best thing you can do because it compresses the wound and stops it bleeding. Have always done it. Was putting a Bosch speed spade bit through a bit of pic window board last year when it snatched, jumped, and landed square on a finger nail. Gritted teeth, shoved the apprentice out of my way and tightly wrapped it, and the pain was gone within seconds. It's brilliant.

keep a roll of this in the van

 

[PEG]

The problem is actually that the H&S laws are destroying the trade and infact society in general. Of course safety should be a personal issue.

The ONLY people that benifet from the H&S laws and requirements are those who have manufactured work for themselves by creating them and the businesses who have jumped on the band wagon created by it. The general worker who is sensible and trained is hampered by the restrictions enforced upon him, the 'newby' or trainee into the trade is denied the right to be responsible for himself and enforced to rely on the requirements, they will never be granted the chance to apply common sense and as a result will be hampered by it. The businesses are ladened with the burden of the responsibilities and threats and last of all the customers/public are ultimately the ones who have to foot the cost.

I may be a dinosaur but I have been around the block a time or two and in my time in the trade I have trained many, many apprentices and employed many good men. But as a small business I will now NEVER employ or train again purely because of the H&S implications, and i certainly aren't the only one.

...I have to disagree,fella...

I am not unaware of risk,my work has involved me in areas,where injury and death,have occurred.

I have worked,in places on this planet,where safety has proved absent,and concern over the death of a work colleague,is not shared by employers,if they do not share a similar race or religion.

My hobbies have included motocross,banger racing,dead-lifts,para motoring and the regular partaking and organising of most forms of shotgunning.

In short,i like to think i'm a bus ride from being fairy-like...

...But if you truly believe,that HSE safety law and practice,in this country,has not benefited a multitude of folk,including all on here...i despair...

 

[shanky887614]

...I have to disagree,fella...

I am not unaware of risk,my work has involved me in areas,where injury and death,have occurred.

I have worked,in places on this planet,where safety has proved absent,and concern over the death of a work colleague,is not shared by employers,if they do not share a similar race or religion.

My hobbies have included motocross,banger racing,dead-lifts,para motoring and the regular partaking and organising of most forms of shotgunning.

In short,i like to think i'm a bus ride from being fairy-like...

...But if you truly believe,that HSE safety law and practice,in this country,has not benefited a multitude of folk,including all on here...i despair...

i dont think any of us here disagree with health and safety as such just how overboard it is.


why do we need to wear a hi-viz, hard hat glasses and gloves to connect a socket on a site?

step laders are banned and i for one believe its made it more dangerous.

ppe should be recommended and manditory in certain areas but not all as a matter of course.

education rather than protective measures as the primary safety precaution.


if im using a knife ill cut away from me, ill keep my hands and feet away from where im drilling or cutting.

ill even wear glasses/goggles as and when needed (not always needed when drilling especially when drilling down (depending on materials) etc

 

[YoungScud]

The problem is actually that the H&S laws are destroying the trade and infact society in general. Of course safety should be a personal issue.

The ONLY people that benifet from the H&S laws and requirements are those who have manufactured work for themselves by creating them and the businesses who have jumped on the band wagon created by it. The general worker who is sensible and trained is hampered by the restrictions enforced upon him, the 'newby' or trainee into the trade is denied the right to be responsible for himself and enforced to rely on the requirements, they will never be granted the chance to apply common sense and as a result will be hampered by it. The businesses are ladened with the burden of the responsibilities and threats and last of all the customers/public are ultimately the ones who have to foot the cost.

I may be a dinosaur but I have been around the block a time or two and in my time in the trade I have trained many, many apprentices and employed many good men. But as a small business I will now NEVER employ or train again purely because of the H&S implications, and i certainly aren't the only one.

I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense. It's like reading the Daily Mail. You're completely misrepresenting H&S law and its purpose. In fact, the law very rarely bans or otherwise prohibits specific items or practices. HASAW, as far as employees are concerned, really only addresses three issues.

1. That you take care of yourself and others affected by your acts and ommissions. Seem unreasonable to you?

2. That you cooperate with your employer in enabling him to discharge his legal obligations. In other words, your employer, not unreasonably, is expected to look at the tasks his employees carry out and write a process for doing so. They, in turn, have to cooperate with that. Terrible, eh?

3. That you do not interfere with anything provided for your health or safety. Don't cut the insulation off your screwdriver.

Now, we could look at various stautory regulations, but we'd find the same kind of language there. The problem, in my view, is not the law, it's interpretation of the law. It's about sensibly applying what's in front of you, and on the whole that's exactly how the law applies. Do some employers over emphasise some aspects of it? They surely do, but the problem is not the law, it's them. Frankly, how much good has been done by the introduction of H&S law isn't even a subject for debate. It's unarguably successful, using any measure. Here's the thing though; although some small businesses may be squeezed to the extent that they fail, if they can't keep their workers properly safe, then arguably they should fail and society will benefit as a result.

 

[YoungScud]

i dont think any of us here disagree with health and safety as such just how overboard it is.


why do we need to wear a hi-viz, hard hat glasses and gloves to connect a socket on a site?

step laders are banned and i for one believe its made it more dangerous.

ppe should be recommended and manditory in certain areas but not all as a matter of course.

education rather than protective measures as the primary safety precaution.


if im using a knife ill cut away from me, ill keep my hands and feet away from where im drilling or cutting.

ill even wear glasses/goggles as and when needed (not always needed when drilling especially when drilling down (depending on materials) etc

"why do we need to wear a hi-viz, hard hat glasses and gloves to connect a socket on a site? " You don't, unless the site management says you do. It's their site, and only they can decide what level of PPE is appropriate. The law plays no part in that. Personally, I find a blanket requiremnt for high-vis strange, but it's not my call, and certainly isn't required by law.


"step laders are banned and i for one believe its made it more dangerous." You have my attention now. Where exactly are stepladders banned? Certainly not in law. The Work at Heights Regs even allow for use of ladders and stepladders as a working platform for limited periods. I can assure you that the guys I work with regularly use stepladders every day.

"ppe should be recommended and manditory in certain areas but not all as a matter of course." Again, PPE isn't necessarily a legal requirement, although it usually makes a degree of sense. In some instances, it woud be madness not to use it. The PPE at Work Regs don't really require the use of PPE unless risk assessment demands it. They're more about selection, provision and traing surrounding PPE.

While I do understand your argument, that argument isn't with the law, it's with those responsible for its application.


Edit: Found this: Myth: HSE has banned stepladders. Ban on stepladders? I think not.

Also this: http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/myth-busting/2012/case093-hivis.htm

 

[telectrix]

totally agree.common sense should dictate what ppe should be used and when to use it. unfortunately a lot of employers and site management buffoons insist on blanket use of unnecessary ppe because they don't possess any common sense.

 

[YoungScud]

I think what's behind it is this: regulations pretty much leave it up to the individual to assess rsik and make a decision as to what preacutions, PPE etc. to use. Employers get nervous about that, so they, in writing processes, become prescriptive. For example, while the Work at Heights Regs talk about falling a distance liable to cause injury, employers will try to prescribe what that distance is. It's understandable in a way, but doesn't always make sense to everyone. The alternative, of simply ignoring regulations, seems far more frightening to me.

 

[vxwestie]

I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense. It's like reading the Daily Mail. You're completely misrepresenting H&S law and its purpose. In fact, the law very rarely bans or otherwise prohibits specific items or practices. HASAW, as far as employees are concerned, really only addresses three issues.

1. That you take care of yourself and others affected by your acts and ommissions. Seem unreasonable to you?

2. That you cooperate with your employer in enabling him to discharge his legal obligations. In other words, your employer, not unreasonably, is expected to look at the tasks his employees carry out and write a process for doing so. They, in turn, have to cooperate with that. Terrible, eh?

3. That you do not interfere with anything provided for your health or safety. Don't cut the insulation off your screwdriver.

Now, we could look at various stautory regulations, but we'd find the same kind of language there. The problem, in my view, is not the law, it's interpretation of the law. It's about sensibly applying what's in front of you, and on the whole that's exactly how the law applies. Do some employers over emphasise some aspects of it? They surely do, but the problem is not the law, it's them. Frankly, how much good has been done by the introduction of H&S law isn't even a subject for debate. It's unarguably successful, using any measure. Here's the thing though; although some small businesses may be squeezed to the extent that they fail, if they can't keep their workers properly safe, then arguably they should fail and society will benefit as a result.

everyone has their own opinion, but with an opinion, knowledge and language like that I can only assume you are one of those who work in the world of H&S and benifet greatly from the nonsense it incurs. It's certainly not the real world and can only assume your not a self employed spark. (No offence intended)

 

[YoungScud]

everyone has their own opinion, but with an opinion, knowledge and language like that I can only assume you are one of those who work in the world of H&S and benifet greatly from the nonsense it incurs. It's certainly not the real world and can only assume your not a self employed spark. (No offence intended)

No, you're right. I'm not a self employed spark, but is that really relevant? You're welcome to your assumptions, but they're meaningless. This is not about opinion. Everything I've stated as fact is verifiable. I spent a lifetime on the tools until around 8 years ago, when I became a trainer. It's certainly true to say I've seen a different side to the world since, but again, that can only add to the sum of my experience. perhaps if you had spent some time in investigating accidents and their causes, you might feel differently too. The law is not the enemy here, misinterpretation, on all sides (and some of the frankly ignorant comments on here confirm this), is.

 

[vxwestie]

The laws and lunacy they incur are certainly my enemy. But we'll agree to disagree.
I'll continue to tow the line where I HAVE to, I'll flaunt them when I NEED to.