Sanyo / Panasonic Premium Installers please read - replacing MC3 connectors

[Gavin A]

Following on from this thread I've been leasing with Panasonic about the issue of whether or not cutting off the MC3 connectors and replacing with another suitable connector eg MC4 should violate the terms of the warranty.

Panasonic are sticking to the line that replacing the connector does invalidate the warranty on the panels, but are sympathetic, and acknowledge that their installation manual or warranty documents aren't clear on this point, so are looking to work out a compromise solution.

Originally they were under the impression it was an isolated case, but I pointed out that I expected this to be a very widespread practice among most UK installers, so any solution they came up with needed to be applied either universally, or via the premium installer network.

I said I'd get some information for them to demonstrate how widespread or otherwise this practice is within their installer network so that they can take this information back to head office and try to work up a revised warranty document that at least covered these existing installations... so please answer the poll so I can take the figures back to Panasonic.

Also, I'd think it wise to try as best we can not to have to cut the ends off the Sanyo / Panasonic cables from now on, as it seems this is not acceptable to Panasonic.

If anyone wants to post up a comment that I can forward to the people at Panasonic who're dealing with this, I'm happy to do this, but please specify in your post that you want the comment forwarded.

 

[SRE]

We don't ever cut off and replace connectors, we've been told by more than one wholesaler that it invalidates the warranties.

 

[SolarCity]

We started replacing connectors for MC4s after our MC3 crimper packed up.

I don't see the slightest thing wrong with it. Did they give you any indication on why they are so concerned about this practice?

Thanks for pursuing this, Gavin.

 

[BruceB]

To my mind replacing a MC3 connector with a MC4 connector at the end of a string is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. If you use a MC3 to MC4 converter it is just one more connection that could go wrong over 25 years.

If it went to court then I believe it would be difficult for Panasonic to wriggle out based on this, particularly if they were up against a consumer with an expert report saying it was irerelevant to panel performance. Fairness comes into play in dealings with consumers.

Regards
Bruce

 

[dansk]

Same here, we replace the MC3 with an MC4 at the connection (its only like 2 connections or 4 at worst)

 

[Gavin A]

We generally don't do this as standard, but we have done it occasionally, and in the rush last year we had 3 pallets of Sanyo panels and had had MC3's on order from early november, but couldn't get hold of any, so had no option but to replace the ends on the cables - or not install £50k of panels / 10 systems.

We've also had times when the MC3 gun has packed up on us (£300 and it fails inside 6 months), or where we've lost a connector down the roof and not had a spare etc.

I can't believe Sanyo really want us to stop the job at this point when we have perfectly suitable alternatives available - or they wanted us to actually ask their permission in these situations, something I'm sure they'd soon get sick of.

eta - obviously I'm only talking about the connectors on the ends of the strings that need connecting to the cable from the isolator.

I want Panasonic to issue a blanket cover for their premium installers to allow this practice in exceptional circumstances, but to make clear that Panasonic don't warranty the new connector that's been fitted. This is what I always assumed would be the case anyway.

 

[Gavin A]

damn, my laptop battery died last night when I was trying to sort the poll out and now it won't let me... will have to sort a new poll thread out later.

 

[SolarCity]

I want Panasonic to issue a blanket cover for their premium installers to allow this practice in exceptional circumstances, but to make clear that Panasonic don't warranty the new connector that's been fitted. This is what I always assumed would be the case anyway.

Likewise. I don't see the issue at all. Even a malfunctioning MC4 connection would not affect the panel, would it? And even if it did, surely an MC4-MC3 adaptor could still introduce a similar malfunction?

The Australian guy that has been asking about his panels is in a bit of a flap with his PMs to me. He is talking about getting the installer to replace the panels. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Gavin A]

hmm, the plot thickens. Unfortunately, after some discussions here, I can actually see their point, as in line with the DTI guide test sheets we only do insulation resistance tests on the DC circuits. As far as we'd need to do a continuity test of the circuit to stand any chance of picking up on a high resistance connection, and we don't see that it's possible to do this unless it's actually dark, or the array can be fully covered (though I guess we could test the panel individually before mounting it).

Either way, we don't have records of these tests, and other than the insulation resistance tests we've essentially been relying on visual inspections of the connections to check that they're good, and I can see why panasonic wouldn't want to warrant that work on that basis.

since my e-mail and our conversation, situation has changed slightly. I dug deeper into the installation manual, spoke with our R&D and the quality management department in both Japan and Hungary and the truth is that there is one key reason why we cannot be held liable without exception once the connectors are changed:

1) The change of connector CAN eventually lead to security issues, which can eventually lead to FIRE
2) In the event of fire, the tracking back of its source is almost impossible and hence, if we excluded the connectors from any liability but kept the liability for the rest of the panel, we could still be held responsible
3) While our colleagues both here and in Japan understand the situation they do not see any possibility to retrospectively check every single connector refitted and “tick” the box which confirms that the module is in accordance with the original security standards, which is needed for us to assume the liability for the product again
4) On top of all this, our installation manual does and did say the following “To avoid the hazard of electric shock, fire, and injury, do not disassemble the module, or remove any part installed by the manufacturer” and our guarantee document clearly states that guarantee is only granted if the installation is 100% conform with the installation manual
5) While I also see the point on avoiding many UK installers calling us for something which is considered as “daily business”, we have checked other installation manuals from other manufacturers and it is actually quite common that guarantee is void, if connectors are changed without approval.

So the final conclusion is that the modules which connectors were changed are not granted guarantee coverage if a problem occurs. We are preparing an statement for all Premium Installers so that they are clearly aware of this and we can avoid this situation when we change from MC3 to SMK connectors (which is meant to happen in Summer). To bypass the eventuality of mixed stock (modules with MC3 and with SMK) adapter cables will be available from your distributor in the UK (so that module cables are not cut; for instance SMK>>MC3).

I am really sorry we cannot go your way this time even if it would have been the less painful situation but we have no choice when security is involved. The consequence is that potentially customers will ask you to replace the modules which connectors have been cut (not the whole array, only the first and last panel of each string…since others are connected to each other and connectors did not have to be changed there).

Do get back to me if you have any questions.

 

[pvman]

Many thanks for the thread Gavin. It's not an issue for us with Sanyo panels as we have used the mc3 crimp but it is something we have done a lot with rec panels, I guess we will have to rethink this.

Tom