scam questions

[ipf]

Aye, that's probably more like it mate

Just edited it, may come over easier.

 

[Engineer54]

OK good answer
What would you think about a person with no formal qualifications (say a seriously dyslectic).
But has a long history of working on site and could carry out any electrical installation works, including all documentation from (Quotation, to sign off certificates) correctly.
Could carry out any task on site with in-depth supervisory experience and responsibility of all works.
Taken that they would have a good understanding of BS 7671.

Really can't see the point your trying desperately to put forward here?? Not even the scam providers could justify registering such a person. Which was the original point you were trying to make.

If there were such guy's around, i would have to ask, why haven't they bothered to take the relevant C&G exams etc to qualify themselves?? In reality, without a JIB card they wouldn't even be able to walk onto the vast majority of sites in the UK!!

 

[SAILOR48]

Really can't see the point your trying desperately to put forward here?? Not even the scam providers could justify registering such a person. Which was the original point you were trying to make.

If there were such guy's around, i would have to ask, why haven't they bothered to take the relevant C&G exams etc to qualify themselves?? In reality, without a JIB card they wouldn't even be able to walk onto the vast majority of sites in the UK!!

So you would think.
But it’s not so there was a time in the dim and distant pass when there existed what was known as Granddad rights.
Not generally broadcast but existed all the same.
Basically if you could prove by being sponsored by your company or indeed if you had your own company you could be assessed by one of the scammers the same as any one else and if found satisfactory you paid your money and you were in.
Its recently been changed you now need the open book 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition thing to stay in.
As you will no doubt agree if you can’t pass this well, hardly an exam.
Same for the JIB card a basic CSCS card will usually get you on site same as above hardly an exam.
But this route is available for now.
Extract from JIB Site
Mature candidate assessment route
If you have been working within the industry but have, for whatever reason, never completed the formal industry qualification, then it will be necessary to complete the mature candidate assessment.
This assessment is carried out via a professional interview and site assessments by a specialist assessor. These assessments can accredit your prior industry experienced, where applicable, with existing technical qualifications taken into account.
In most cases gaining accreditation is a straightforward process for those legitimately competent in the industry, and relevant experience can generally be verified and documented by an experienced assessor in 6 to 8 weeks.

Until 31st December 2012 candidates who are registered by their training provider/assessor will demonstrate their industry knowledge and experience against the NVQ Level 3 in Electrotechnical Services (Electrical Installation - Buildings & Structures). This process will have to have been completed before the last certification date in 2015.
From 1st January 2013 candidates will be registered by their training provider/assessor on the Level 3 NVQ Diploma in Electrical Installations (Buildings and Structures) and this will include the AM2 assessment.
This qualification route is open to anyone who has industry experience but does not hold the relevant industry qualification.
Information on the mature candidate route is available from the following national assessment companies or your local college or assessor :

 

[Engineer54]

Whatever way you want to look at it, unless you go through some form of formal training or in depth assessment where technical and practical knowledge has to be proved, you don't get a JIB electricians card!! I hope your not implying that an improver/mates JIB card will allow them to literary run a project electrically, as you described in an earlier post on this thread??

Not really interested in what the scammers consider competent, anyone and their dog can pass their assessment procedures, they have proved time and time again, they are primarily only interested in the money side of things!!

 

[SAILOR48]

Whatever way you want to look at it, unless you go through some form of formal training or in depth assessment where technical and practical knowledge has to be proved, you don't get a JIB electricians card!! I hope your not implying that an improver/mates JIB card will allow them to literary run a project electrically, as you described in an earlier post on this thread??


No they would have a full skill gold card

Not really interested in what the scammers consider competent, anyone and their dog can pass their assessment procedures, they have proved time and time again, they are primarily only interested in the money side of things!!

If they were free would you join one?
The JIB are owned by the ECA
“The JIB is jointly owned by ECA and Unite, the union. Its objectives are to provide a forum for debate and agreement on employment matters, as well as offering employers practical support in dealing professionally with employees and employment requirements.”

So where do we go from here who is to judge wheather we are compitant? (you seem to be getting humpy again hangover is it?)

 

[Infamous]

There is no specific requirement for you to be a member of an organisation such as the NICEIC or ECA etc for commercial electrical installation work. None. You have a duty however to follow the HASWA/EAWR and in doing so common sense and compliance with BS7671:2008(2011) is required in all aspects of the job. Competency can only be proven by suitable qualifications and experience.

Now a client may well request such trade body organisation membership for tendering commercial installation work. This is down to the illusion companies like the NICEIC/ECA etc like to create that in order to be a fully qualified electrician/registered you need to be a member. However in no way does membership with said organisations guarantee compliance on a job for the client, nor does it give any protection for a company which fails to comply with the above regulations and are a member. In short membership gives you no legal bolstering what so ever, if you burn a village down the ECA/NICEIC etc wont have your back in court.

Worse than that the NICEIC/ECA's etc definition of competency in a court of law might not even be enough to prove competency beyond doubt in the first place.

And as for Part P - from April domestic electrical work can be carried out by Bob the plasterer from the pub, non qualified, non registered and his third party mate the "competent person" can produce just a EICR rather than a EIC Endorsed by the government and said scam provider. Limitations anyone?:iamwithstupid:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013_DRAFT.pdf

 

[trev]

If they were free would you join one?
The JIB are owned by the ECA
“The JIB is jointly owned by ECA and Unite, the union. Its objectives are to provide a forum for debate and agreement on employment matters, as well as offering employers practical support in dealing professionally with employees and employment requirements.”

So where do we go from here who is to judge wheather we are compitant? (you seem to be getting humpy again hangover is it?)

JIB now owned(?) by ECA....
ECA now are in bad with NICEIC...
The world really has gone to hell in a handcart.
Dan, Shut this down we're all going off to be gas blokes.

 

[eagles]

So part p is getting worse. Who makes this sh!t up, this trade is doomed

 

[Engineer54]

If they were free would you join one?
The JIB are owned by the ECA
“The JIB is jointly owned by ECA and Unite, the union. Its objectives are to provide a forum for debate and agreement on employment matters, as well as offering employers practical support in dealing professionally with employees and employment requirements.”

So where do we go from here who is to judge wheather we are compitant? (you seem to be getting humpy again hangover is it?)

It's not me that's living in your hypothetical world, ...thank god!!!!

 

[Robert Turnbull]

So for commercial work it's just NIC and ECA non of the others?

 

[MDJ]

Dan, Shut this down we're all going off to be gas blokes.

Come on Trev, we can stick it out, there may only be a few of us left but chin up Pal Lets not talk about going down the Plummers route haha

 

[Guest111]

The way this diy advice forum is going maybe we'd better just gas ourselves!

 

[SAILOR48]

There is no specific requirement for you to be a member of an organisation such as the NICEIC or ECA etc for commercial electrical installation work. None. You have a duty however to follow the HASWA/EAWR and in doing so common sense and compliance with BS7671:2008(2011) is required in all aspects of the job. Competency can only be proven by suitable qualifications and experience.

Now a client may well request such trade body organisation membership for tendering commercial installation work. This is down to the illusion companies like the NICEIC/ECA etc like to create that in order to be a fully qualified electrician/registered you need to be a member. However in no way does membership with said organisations guarantee compliance on a job for the client, nor does it give any protection for a company which fails to comply with the above regulations and are a member. In short membership gives you no legal bolstering what so ever, if you burn a village down the ECA/NICEIC etc wont have your back in court.

Worse than that the NICEIC/ECA's etc definition of competency in a court of law might not even be enough to prove competency beyond doubt in the first place.

And as for Part P - from April domestic electrical work can be carried out by Bob the plasterer from the pub, non qualified, non registered and his third party mate the "competent person" can produce just a EICR rather than a EIC Endorsed by the government and said scam provider. Limitations anyone?:iamwithstupid:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013_DRAFT.pdf

Competency can only be proven by suitable qualifications and experience.



I think that if you had done something so bad that you were in the dock defending yourself for it, waving a hand full of C&G certificates at the court wouldn’t cut any ice, because, if you were competent you wouldn’t be there.
Same with the scam scheme membership.
But being a member would show that the specifier /customer had shown reasonable diligence in appointing a competent company how else could/ would they tell?

“Well no, the company had not been a member of any accredited body but, the chap had a lot of certificates and he told me he was experienced , I checked with one of his customers and they said he was ok and he was cheaper than the rest”

ECA own the JIB. The JIB issue the ECS cards The ECA was ELECSA and now they control the NICEIC Via Certsure.

“We will act as the sole registration, certification and assessment body for not only NICEIC’s current customer base, but for those under the ELECSA and ECA brands too. Emma Clancy, CEO of Certsure.
http://www.eca.co.uk/training-news-and-events/news/eca-press-releases/trade/2012/eca-and-esc-announce-major-partnership/
This not some hypothetical world that I live in it’s the real world,
I don’t agree with it but what you going to do?

 

[ipf]

The way this diy advice forum is going maybe we'd better just gas ourselves!

Maybe, but plenty more are gonna get zapped, methinks.

 

[Engineer54]

Well in the real world, None of the fast track 17day/Electrical Trainee's will ever manage to obtain an electricians JIB grade card without under going further extensive training etc. So for all it's faults, the JIB grading system is at least doing some good!! I can't see the joint operators, namely the electrical Union letting those standards slip anytime soon either.


Far too many ''what ifs'' and ''maybes'' within your arguments, so it's still all hypothetical, especially when you bring the law into the equation. The Law has always been an unpredictable ---, and will continue to be so....

 

[SAILOR48]

Well in the real world, None of the fast track 17day/Electrical Trainee's will ever manage to obtain an electricians JIB grade card without under going further extensive training etc. So for all it's faults, the JIB grading system is at least doing some good!! I can't see the joint operators, namely the electrical Union letting those standards slip anytime soon either.


Far too many ''what ifs'' and ''maybes'' within your arguments, so it's still all hypothetical, especially when you bring the law into the equation. The Law has always been an unpredictable ---, and will continue to be so....

I am sorry if you think that I am starting an argument, all I am trying to do is to answer best I can the OP question and trying to give him my unbiased opinion am not trying to say that one thing is better than another its up to him what he does.
I honestly believe if he wants to get on in the trade and create a profitable business, forget part P and scratching about in peoples lofts and get in to commercial and industrial work.
In order to get decent worthwhile works it is a big advantage to be in a scheme.

The IET who are reasonable for creating the BS 7671, recognise A qualifying supervisor in electrical installation (as defined by ECA, NICEIC); as criteria to become a member of the IET.
There is no such grading as electrician and their ECS cards
As for 17day/Electrical Trainee's if they worked for a JIB company, they could be sponsored for an ECS card.

 

[Engineer54]

I am sorry if you think that I am starting an argument, all I am trying to do is to answer best I can the OP question and trying to give him my unbiased opinion am not trying to say that one thing is better than another its up to him what he does.
I honestly believe if he wants to get on in the trade and create a profitable business, forget part P and scratching about in peoples lofts and get in to commercial and industrial work.
In order to get decent worthwhile works it is a big advantage to be in a scheme.

The IET who are reasonable for creating the BS 7671, recognise A qualifying supervisor in electrical installation (as defined by ECA, NICEIC); as criteria to become a member of the IET.
There is no such grading as electrician and their ECS cards
As for 17day/Electrical Trainee's if they worked for a JIB company, they could be sponsored for an ECS card.

Fortunately or unfortunately whatever way you want to look at it, I am biased!! This was once a proud professional industry that i considered a privilege to be a part of. Now it's been ransacked by leeches and reduced to an industry that's anything but professional!!

I know, they have been letting any Tom Dick and Harry in for quite a while now. If i was starting all over again, i would rather be Chartered through CIBS than this new IET. A far more professional Institute all round!! Too old and too late in the day to change now!! lol!!

As for the fast track boy's ...again, ONLY as at a grade of Labourer, Mate, Improver!!

 

[SAILOR48]

Fortunately or unfortunately whatever way you want to look at it, I am biased!! This was once a proud professional industry that i considered a privilege to be a part of. Now it's been ransacked by leeches and reduced to an industry that's anything but professional!!

I know, they have been letting any Tom Dick and Harry in for quite a while now. If i was starting all over again, i would rather be Chartered through CIBS than this new IET. A far more professional Institute all round!! Too old and too late in the day to change now!! lol!!

As for the fast track boy's ...again, ONLY as at a grade of Labourer, Mate, Improver!!

Oh mate you need to chill out, its not rocket science, look in a book, get a bit of experience, and you might just might earn £30,000 a year if you are lucky.
Think about it.

 

[MDJ]

Oh mate you need to chill out, its not rocket science, look in a book, get a bit of experience, and you might just might earn £30,000 a year if you are lucky.
Think about it.

He wouldn't get out of bed for 30k a year M8, do you ever read the threads here?

 

[Engineer54]

Oh mate you need to chill out, its not rocket science, look in a book, get a bit of experience, and you might just might earn £30,000 a year if you are lucky.
Think about it.

Say's the wanna-be electrician!!

 

[Guest111]

Oh mate you need to chill out, its not rocket science, look in a book, get a bit of experience, and you might just might earn £30,000 a year if you are lucky.
Think about it.

I think you need to watch your step here fella, E54 is one of our most respected members and you would be a wise man not to disrespect him when you know half as much as he or certain other members of this forum know then MAYBE JUST MAYBE you can make such offensive comments.remember one day you may need his advice.

 

[MDJ]

I think you need to watch your step here fella, E54 is one of our most respected members and you would be a wise man not to disrespect him when you know half as much as he

Quite right, I have already learned that myself, what a ridiculous post by Sailor, another wannabe, and he will never know 10% of what E54 does, ah well the Electrical Trainee brigade continues, exhausting but we have a Job to do to protect the public, dear oh dear and round 2 begins sigh, will the queen give us MBEs for the pain we have to endear I wonder sigh.

 

[Guest111]

Quite right, I have already learned that myself, what a ridiculous post by Sailor, another wannabe, and he will never know 10% of what E54 does, ah well the Electrical Trainee brigade continues, exhausting but we have a Job to do to protect the public, dear oh dear and round 2 begins sigh, will the queen give us MBEs for the pain we have to endear I wonder sigh.

Exactly and that is the true measure of a mans knowledge,when you realise that you don't know it all then you are truly a knowlegeable man!

 

[SAILOR48]

I think you need to watch your step here fella, E54 is one of our most respected members and you would be a wise man not to disrespect him when you know half as much as he or certain other members of this forum know then MAYBE JUST MAYBE you can make such offensive comments.remember one day you may need his advice.

If you want to stick your heads in the sand OK your right I’m wrong

 

[Guest111]

If you want to stick your heads in the sand OK your right I’m wrong

99 troops marching to the right 1 marching to the left,which do you think is going the wrong way?

 

[SAILOR48]

99 troops marching to the right 1 marching to the left,which do you think is going the wrong way?

Me obviously
OP No don’t join any of the scam schemes there a waste of time they won’t help you in any way.
You will be able to get on any insurance, council, MOD, etc procurement list most decent construction companies are not interested in you being accredited you can show them you exam results, they are not interested in whether you have a H&E policy customer complaints policy warranty or bond to cover your works.
Am I now forgiven for daring to question the holy one?

 

[Guest111]

Me obviously
OP No don’t join any of the scam schemes there a waste of time they won’t help you in any way.
You will be able to get on any insurance, council, MOD, etc procurement list most decent construction companies are not interested in you being accredited you can show them you exam results, they are not interested in whether you have a H&E policy customer complaints policy warranty or bond to cover your works.
Am I now forgiven for daring to question the holy one?

say 3 hail marys 1 our father and go in peace and sin no more .lol.ps at least you have a sense of humour.

 

[ipf]

Me obviously
OP No don’t join any of the scam schemes there a waste of time they won’t help you in any way.
You will be able to get on any insurance, council, MOD, etc procurement list most decent construction companies are not interested in you being accredited you can show them you exam results, they are not interested in whether you have a H&E policy customer complaints policy warranty or bond to cover your works.
Am I now forgiven for daring to question the holy one?

Most of us know the pros and cons....been going over them for years now. Most of us have been members of one scheme or another for donkeys years. But it has become a money making exercise. Look at the facts.

You go on about requirements, above. Do you not think E54 has to take such things into account in his present position. Probably tie most of us in knots.

Get the point!

Anyway, all the best for new year.

 

[shagbite]

i think we should all be showing sailor a bit more respect. this fella's one of the few remaining '1st edition' electricians and he served his apprenticeship with thomas alva edison!

only joking mate - trying to lighten the mood!!

 

[Engineer54]

Me obviously
OP No don’t join any of the scam schemes there a waste of time they won’t help you in any way.
You will be able to get on any insurance, council, MOD, etc procurement list most decent construction companies are not interested in you being accredited you can show them you exam results, they are not interested in whether you have a H&E policy customer complaints policy warranty or bond to cover your works.
Am I now forgiven for daring to question the holy one?

Thaks for the support guy's!!

Don't forget your original question, ...how does a customer/client know if an electrician/company is competent?? Since then you have drifted off in all directions with a load of, what if's and maybes...

Sailor 48, No-one is saying that the outside world hasn't been hoodwinked by the likes of the NICEIC and other scams, into thinking that only their registered contractors will guarantee competence etc. But we all know that is now total crap. At one time, you may even have been right, the NICEIC approved contractor scheme was something special to hold. Those day's have well and truly gone, any excellence that was there, has been eroded in favour of catching more and more cash, from those companies and contractors (by the lowering of overall assessment standards etc), that should never be or have been approved. So yes in essence of your original question, they are a waste of time, as they will certainly not prove competence, that is just the illusion they market under!!


What i and others are saying, is that none of these schemes will guarantee anything, either to a contractors client or to the registered contractor. I'm sure any electrical contractor can obtain any insurance they would need to trade in the electrical industry. Same as with the other elements you mention above. You don't need to be in a scheme to develop any of that criteria. In fact as a contractor, you have ALWAYS needed to provide prove of such criteria at the contract tender stage, long, long before any of these scam schemes came about.


It's just unfortunate that these schemes and other leeches have been allowed to wriggle their way into our industry. All have done no end of damage, and the really sad part about it all, none of them were ever needed in the first place. These roaches only see our industry now as a cash cow, that gets to be milked on a regular basis.