School testing.

[bigdavs83]

Davesparks sound advice however can you always trust previous test results? Especially if it's done by some other company of which you know nothing about.

 

[Guest77]

Agreed MDJ it is whatever the customer wants and that is what the limitations sections are for but as I say in my experience it's a circuit that is left for thirty years after the initial install without a test. Just not worth it mate

Fair enough

 

[bigdavs83]

ipf as your post says chances are it will be fine but you're relying on the install guys there and as you say IF a circuit has been installed properly. Personally I'm not relying on them possibly installing it properly.

 

[UNG]

I've stated the deal we have in place and it's actually with the local authority which covers 6 schools and two leisure centres. We test it all as an arse covering exercise. Canny do night shift cos it's dark doesn't quite cut it these days

So is it the PFI contractor that's covering it's arse or just you covering yours

There is no problem with night shifts providing a proper risk assessment is in place

UNG the schools are left in a midden for us to take over and trying to get them back on a snag issue is an interesting conversation. It's just not worth not testing it and leaving it for thirty years after the initial install.

Who said anything about not testing it for 30 years

 

[ipf]

ipf as your post says chances are it will be fine but you're relying on the install guys there and as you say IF a circuit has been installed properly. Personally I'm not relying on them possibly installing it properly.

Aye, but with some visual, checking a few connections and a bit of nouse, you can be pretty sure it falls on the good side....testing at circuit source

 

[bigdavs83]

Need to read the whole posts I was stating in my experience with the schools contract if it is left after every pir as a limitation. Slightly off the OP subject to be fair.

 

[aaelectric]

I would test every circuit but may only open a few sockets switches and lights on eachcircuit . I wouldnt open every socket and light fitting if the viewed ones looked good. As long as test are ok!
thanks guys

 

[shanky887614]

I would test every circuit but may only open a few sockets switches and lights on eachcircuit . I wouldnt open every socket and light fitting if the viewed ones looked good. As long as test are ok!
thanks guys

but do you test every socket?

 

[UNG]

I would test every circuit but may only open a few sockets switches and lights on eachcircuit . I wouldnt open every socket and light fitting if the viewed ones looked good. As long as test are ok!
thanks guys

So you are applying a limitation then

 

[shanky887614]

So you are applying a limitation then

then he is not testing 100% as he agreed with client.

forgive me if Im wrong but doesnt an eicr also state a function test?

How can you perform a function test if you dont check all spckets and it takes no extra time to do r1+r2 then zs at each socket.

(use plug in tester rather than taking fronts off)

 

[aaelectric]

Yes all sockets would be checked but not opened. A plug in tester would be used. Would you open every light to check connections if the last fitting has good connections?
what about stage lighting multicore swa. Would all of this need testing there is. 4 poles with stage lighting and 15 amp socket outlets all connected to a dimming panel

 

[UNG]

then he is not testing 100% as he agreed with client.

forgive me if Im wrong but doesnt an eicr also state a function test?

How can you perform a function test if you dont check all spckets and it takes no extra time to do r1+r2 then zs at each socket.

(use plug in tester rather than taking fronts off)

So you are still not inspecting 100% how does a plug in tester check the integrity and tightness of the terminals at a socket

It is very easy to spout about doing a 100% I & T but I'm begining to wonder if people have different interpretations of 100%
There always will on every I & T be some compromise as to completely 100% check one RFC with 20 sockets on would take some time on a large site with a few RFC's of similar size how many circuits are you going to I & T in a day as the customer watches the costs spiral

 

[shanky887614]

So you are still not inspecting 100% how does a plug in tester check the integrity and tightness of the terminals at a socket

It is very easy to spout about doing a 100% I & T but I'm begining to wonder if people have different interpretations of 100%
There always will on every I & T be some compromise as to completely 100% check one RFC with 20 sockets on would take some time on a large site with a few RFC's of similar size how many circuits are you going to I & T in a day as the customer watches the costs spiral

I will hold my hand up and say with this firm we have never done a 100% test and inspection.

while doing work experience at another firm they did, all fronts off and test at everything.

highest reading on test sheet.

the nic inspector didnt want the guys yo test everything during inspection, he wanted zs calculated?

honestly that wouldn't be right because of parallel paths etc.

 

[davesparks]

Yes all sockets would be checked but not opened. A plug in tester would be used. Would you open every light to check connections if the last fitting has good connections?
what about stage lighting multicore swa. Would all of this need testing there is. 4 poles with stage lighting and 15 amp socket outlets all connected to a dimming panel

Go on then, how do you go about testing the stage lighting installation?
How do you carry out a Zs test on the outgoing circuits of a hardwired dimmer? Or a patch able system for that matter?

Bearing in mind stage lighting installations for everything from school halls to Glastonbury festival are my specialist subject

 

[davesparks]

Davesparks sound advice however can you always trust previous test results? Especially if it's done by some other company of which you know nothing about.

This is why you compare your results to the previous results! If they match within a sensible tolerance then you would trust them. If the test results have got drastically better then question the previous test results. If they have got worse then you need to work out if it is due to degradation or poor testing last time .


People seem to forgot that one of the purposes of writing down your test results is to be able to track any changes in the installation.

 

[shanky887614]

Go on then, how do you go about testing the stage lighting installation?
How do you carry out a Zs test on a hardwired dimmer? Or a patch able system for that matter?

Bearing in mind stage lighting installations for everything from school halls to Glastonbury festival are my specialist subject

the problem is more people selling the service as a 100% test which missing bits out isnt

 

[davesparks]

I was going to ask about the stage lx installs earlier on but got distracted. You can't do the standard tests out of the book as the dimmer effectively forms a DB (24 ways of dimming at 10A each) but each way is controlled by a dimmer so you can't just plug a loop impedance tester in the end of it and get a sensible result!

But then some testing wombles will code the whole lot C2 due to it having 'obsolete' plugs and sockets! We use 15A round pin sockets to distinguish dimmer controlled sockets from regular sockets.

 

[aaelectric]

I was going to ask about the stage lx installs earlier on but got distracted. You can't do the standard tests out of the book as the dimmer effectively forms a DB (24 ways of dimming at 10A each) but each way is controlled by a dimmer so you can't just plug a loop impedance tester in the end of it and get a sensible result!

But then some testing wombles will code the whole lot C2 due to it having 'obsolete' plugs and sockets! We use 15A round pin sockets to distinguish dimmer controlled sockets from regular sockets.

So how would you test the multicore would you need to disconnect from dimmers? Last spark left this out as lim

 

[Rockingit]

You test the multicore and the plugs and sockets each end of it for all the normal dead tests - unplugged from any dimming - and do not even think about doing any live tests as even if you don't manage to destroy something then the results will be meaningless anyway.

 

[Rockingit]

And as Dave said, round pin 15A and 5A are perfectly safe and acceptable.

 

[graham123]

100 circuits about 3 days work in a empty school, depending on the condition of it

 

[UNG]

100 circuits about 3 days work in a empty school, depending on the condition of it

100 circuits - 72 hours what %age of accessories are you checking

 

[davesparks]

You test the multicore and the plugs and sockets each end of it for all the normal dead tests - unplugged from any dimming - and do not even think about doing any live tests as even if you don't manage to destroy something then the results will be meaningless anyway.

I hope we're talking about installed rather than temporary installs so you do the usual tests you do for any installed circuit.

Treat an install dimmer as being another DB, only difference is doing the Zs test using the alternative method where you join L to E at the far end of the circuit and test between the incoming side of the dimmer and the outgoing.

 

[graham123]

4 ccts per hour over an 8-9 hour day onsite. If school was empty. 100%visual to every accessory 20%removal of accessories on circuit. And the use of common sense

 

[UNG]

4 ccts per hour over an 8-9 hour day onsite. If school was empty. 100%visual to every accessory 20%removal of accessories on circuit. And the use of common sense

So not a 100% I & T then

 

[graham123]

So you would remove every accessory on a large ring main?

 

[martinh287]

100% in a domestic environment is a must but 100% in most commercial building's would be difficult to achieve to a acceptable price and disruption to the client. Previous test results and sufficient sampling of circuits should give anyone a indication to the extant of the test required

 

[graham123]

I agree with that 100%

 

[Richard Burns]

100% testing is acceptable but 100% internal inspection of equipment is not recommended as it can cause more damage and problems with the disturbance , especially if it is inspected regularly.
Sample inspections is the way to go, the extent of testing may be staged over time to reduce disruption.

 

[UNG]

So you would remove every accessory on a large ring main?

No, there are a few on here that do advocate 100% I & T I'm not one of them

100% in a domestic environment is a must but 100% in most commercial building's would be difficult to achieve to a acceptable price and disruption to the client. Previous test results and sufficient sampling of circuits should give anyone a indication to the extant of the test required

Why differentiate surely if it is good enough for one type of installation it is good enough for all.

 

[jay sean]

I done a empty school last holidays, can do about 40 ccts a day--we do about 20% visual of accessories - if you find lots of faults you would increase the sampling.

 

[graham123]

I can normally do between 30-40 a day in in empty school