Second Opinion on Modification to Existing Circuit

[lozarus]

Came into work today with a fairly urgent requirement to install an instant hot water handwash unit in a small commercial kitchenette/servery - circa 2.8kw. Of course, it's in a right difficult area.

As the handwash is over 2kW, I'd ideally like to follow OSG advice and give it it's own circuit. However, pulling new cables back to the "local" DB isn't really viable with the timescale I have, so I've had a look at what exists at present and I have a few options. None of them will be perfect and I'm struggling to establish the best / safest - or indeed a concrete reason to pick none of them, so wondered if I could put my thoughts out there.

The entire thing has been terribly designed from the outset. There's just one twin socket present that runs the pannini press (2.8kw) and the milk chiller. This is just a 20a radial - don't intend to touch this as it's already got some significant load on it and I've discovered it seems to have been wired by someone with their teeth and in SY which looks like it's 1.5.

The only other circuit - also wired in SY - is a 6mm radial to a 32a socket. The 32a socket has a flylead in 4mm flex, adapting it down to a single 13a socket where it runs a coffee machine (again 2.8kW)....so I figured this would be the most likely contender to alter

I considered terminating the SY using a proper gland (even though I'd rather not use the stuff as it's entirely inappropriate) into a glav knockout box and creating a "hybrid" or "lollipop" RFC back to the 6mm - or indeed a 4mm radial from this point to supply a single socket for the coffee machine, and then an FCU for the handwash

It just feels wrong - because it won't be a standard circuit - but in my head I know it will be perfectly safe. I don't like the SY but my hands are a bit tied with this one.

Am I worrying over nothing? Currently doing my NVQ so having a slight heightened awareness here....

Thanks

 

[Flanders]

Isn't SY cable a signal cable or something ? only to used to connect up certain things like AC units, and not to used as a distribuition cable

The problem.. with sy cable is that its not recognised by bs7671 although there are tables on line with current carrying capacity detail. We only used it for long runs on 24 volt access control and BMS . But you see it all the time used on Air con systems. that not to say its correct and when used outdoors water get into the cable on corrodes the braiding

 

[lozarus]

I find it such an odd choice of cable when there's so many others - much more suitable - available.

In another area we have BMS guys working on the plant rooms at the moment. They seem to love it. Which I can sort of get because it is a "control cable". However they've used some on a catenary to a remote plant room - and it isn't UV rated. Their commercial spark also used it to make up the 32a flylead om CEEform to the site cabin. I just don't get it? Last time I did a flylead I used H07 due to its tough sheath, pliability and UV resisting properties.

The circuits in this kitchen could have just as easily been done with T&E.

I fitted the radial for the water heater today. The walls were a bit wibbly wobbly so I went for FP200 rather than trunking or conduit - I wouldn't have even considered SY so no idea why this guy did.

Glad I didn't adapt his 32a 6mm radial. Once I was up my steps I could see that he'd forced it under the metal roller shutter housing and wrapped a load of tape around it - in what I assume wasa bit an attempt to stop it feeling the effects of the roller shutter vibrating.

And just to add a bit of context this is in a school. Most regular schools don't have specialists employed as staff - so I assume this sort of bodgery is very much commonplace as it will all be getting approved by the "unskilled" Teachers / Business Managers at the lowest cost.

I got employed as the Estate Manager with electrical bias and inherited this rubbish.

For what its worth the more recent Council / Local Authority work is just as terrible

The VIR singles and MICC installed when it was built in the 60's however is all a work of art - except where it's been tampered with by the aforementioned ropey contractoes

 

[nicebutdim]

And just to add a bit of context this is in a school. Most regular schools don't have specialists employed as staff - so I assume this sort of bodgery is very much commonplace as it will all be getting approved by the "unskilled" Teachers / Business Managers at the lowest cost.

I got employed as the Estate Manager with electrical bias and inherited this rubbish.

For what its worth the more recent Council / Local Authority work is just as terrible

In the college I attend all electrical work is carried out by a maintenance company.

Their work is nothing to write home about and I'm won't begin to describe how long they can milk the simplest of tasks.

 

[lozarus]

In the college I attend all electrical work is carried out by a maintenance company.

Their work is nothing to write home about and I'm won't begin to describe how long they can milk the simplest of tasks.

Yup. Up until i started and built a team of general maintenance bods (think retired plumbers, a couple of young lads wanting to learn a trade who I've put on courses etc) rather than just "caretakers", they were using the council helpline for everything - broken sockets to a tap washer. The council obviously sub it out to the general maintenance companies. When I started I walked around with one of the maintenance subbies who was trying to diagnose a heating issue. I watched him declare that the 'cable here is the switch live so will be dead' - whilst I was thinking 'no, that has to be the perm'. And then watched him get a belt.....

 

[James]

Sy cable has its uses, it is of course screened so suitable for connecting motors to inverter drives where emc may be a problem.

i did once have a situation where I installed a machine using tough rubber cable.
the MD called me back and told me it was not acceptable and had to be done in ”armoured cable” for safety.
didn‘t argue, came back and changed it for armoured as that is what the customer wanted.
next day I got called back and had a roasting because he wanted “flexible armoured cable”
I told him that I have never heard of such a product and he showed me something wired in sy.
a bit of client education about the different cable types, involving a mallet and a knife, showed him that the sy was weaker than the rubber and nothing beats armoured cable for resistance to destruction.

put it back to tough rubber flex and got paid for doing the job 3 times!!