Self employed electricians mate

[Shpark]

I’m currently training to be a spark. I’ve got my level 3 C & G quals. I’m currently working as a mate to gain experience and earn a bit, but I’m getting stung by being paid by a payroll firm. Between having to pay my NI and tax and their NI and fees, I’m loosing nearly 150 a week. Does anyone know how I can do this on a self employed basis? Will it benefit me more? Will I need my own insurance. Help please.

Thanks In advance

 

[telectrix]

with CIS you get stopped 20% of gross. at end of year you claim back tax on your personal allowance ( about£11,000)and justifiable expenses, so you'd get back a min. of £2,200 on your pa.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

with CIS you get stopped 20% of gross. at end of year you claim back tax on your personal allowance ( about£11,000)and justifiable expenses, so you'd get back a min. of £2,200 on your pa.

The gross is £520 not £457.26.
Even with the pay roll company’s fee the gross would be £500. Not sure whether the £2.20 for insurance has been deducted before or after tax and NI contributions.
From the pay slip, nothing has been allowed for expenses, which would reduce both his tax and NI liabilities.

 

[Octopus]

I have not got a clue how any of this works, I just want to do my job and not get conned. Saying that, surly I can go self employed and take home my top line and juts pay my own tax and NI and not pay their employers national insurance and their fees

Go and speak to a proper accountant...

 

[Octopus]

Holiday pay?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Not being employed by anyone, the holiday pay has to come from somewhere.

 

[paleosparky13]

The problem you have here, is that as a ‘Mate’, you are supervised.
Being supervised means you do not meet the criteria for being considered self employed.
As far as I am aware, until you become qualified, the only way round this is to set up a Ltd Co.

Nonsense, Nobody is un-supervised on site not even the supervisors. Control and supervision directives are rules or tests imposed by HMRC to prevent someone who is and should be employed on a full time PAYE basis ie. An Office Secretary in a permant, fixed working environment, from going self employed and minimising their tax position.
We have the CIS scheme to ensure we pay up front.
This scheme doesn't apply to us as the building site is temporary and when it's completed we have no job.
Not even a labourer is exempt this scheme. Carpet fitter's and architects and cleaners nobody else.
They use their fake concerns about legal compliance with the above law, that has nothing to do with the construction industry and remove them and place them in highly illegal and lucrative umbrella schemes.

My advice is go on the HMRC website under supervision direction and control, take the self assessment test/short answer question and pass the results to the filthy animal scumbag c u nt of an agent.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The supervision aspect is not nonsense, it quite sensical.
What is nonsense is the idea that if agencies paid us direct they would fall foul of IR35. So use Pay Roll companies that they often own to pay us.
A Mate or Improver is someone who is not qualified and would not be expected to work on their own, unsupervised.
A qualified Electrician should be able to work from drawings with minimal supervision. Might need to be told where materials are stored, what gauge tray is being used, whether earth links are required, perhaps even maximum distances between supports for containment?
As for fake concerns, the HMRC has written to agencies informing them that if it is discovered that workers are being engaged as Self Employed when they should in fact be treated as employed, the Agencies will be liable for any tax or NI contributions owed.

 

[paleosparky13]

I’m getting paid very handsomely, I juts need advice on being self employed because the payroll firm are riding me sideways

Y

The supervision aspect is not nonsense, it quite sensical.
What is nonsense is the idea that if agencies paid us direct they would fall foul of IR35. So use Pay Roll companies that they often own to pay us.
A Mate or Improver is someone who is not qualified and would not be expected to work on their own, unsupervised.
A qualified Electrician should be able to work from drawings with minimal supervision. Might need to be told where materials are stored, what gauge tray is being used, whether earth links are required, perhaps even maximum distances between supports for containment?
As for fake concerns, the HMRC has written to agencies informing them that if it is discovered that workers are being engaged as Self Employed when they should in fact be treated as employed, the Agencies will be liable for any tax or NI contributions owed.

Nonsense. HMRC have no qaulms about direct payment less cis deduction. As per the scheme. As long as that 20% is deducted there will be no problems. HMRC has never contacted any agent and asked them to be illegally removed from the CIS scheme and stuck in some convelluted umbrella scam. Utter lies pal. My practical skills exceeded my qualifications for most of my time as an improved/mate. I was working alone, with drawings from about year 2. I got my gold card in year 4.
My app comes out autumn this year. and will f u ck the agents right off out of it. Tool box talks, online card and qualification verification, fully legally compliant within cis scheme and charges to contractors will sub 2% p/w including payroll. Money being handled entirely via an app not greedy manual handled payroll scams. The days of agents living out of our arseholes are numbered.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Sorry, but I did contact HMRC when I was first informed by various agencies regarding a change in the Law.
The information given to me by HMRC was that there was no change in the Law, but a directive had been sent out requiring agencies to check on the employment status of their workers and that where any workers were discovered by HMRC to be falsely treated as Self Employed, the agencies would be held liable.
I was also informed that the Pay Roll companies would not be able to deduct Employer’s NI contributions without the worker’s prior agreement.

 

[paleosparky13]

Nonsense again mate. I was never employed by anyone on any building site ever. I put myself through the trade and was robbed along the way. I was always responsible for my own tools and and equipment and ppe. I have always worked site to site. I have always had costs associated with my work on site from day 1 labourer through to mate and improvers and approved JIB spark. . Tools, travel, accommodation, access equipment cards, site tickets, health and safety tickets. Nobody paid for those, I did, and to think I'd have to sink those costs on net pay after being robbed on an umbrella is a disgrace. I have never had An employer and if i ever did it wouldn't be via myself under a forced umbrella scam scheme. . Again. The law doesn't make any comment on grades of qualified as per electrician. It only it set the terms of its taxation policy across the industry. There is no risk of ir35 when you're deducting money at source. Its a lucrative interpretation made by nasty agents at the cost of the improver or mate..they are percevieved as easy targets, The problem these short term c u nts don't realise is that, I was a mate and and an improver once and was robbed by agents and payroll firms.

I now run my own commercial/industrial jobs and would never use any agents or their payrolls on any on any jobs. Outright ban. Good luck to em. Filthy animals. And I won't change my user name on this site, when my app passes testing and hosting and commecial launching this year. The agents are filth. No pointbto their existance.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Deny it all you want, doesn’t change anything, the facts are what they are.
In April 2014 virtually all the agencies started paying through these Umbrella companies.
I had been using a Payroll company called Fairgate Construction Services and had a contract with them to be paid CIS.
I started a new job for an agency called BMSL at the end of March, received my first payment on the 7th of April.
Found I had been paid PAYE and was paying Employer’s NI contribution.
Fairgate changed their name to Fairgate Commercial Contracting and sent me a number of new contracts to sign. Which I never did sign.
I argued with both BMSL and Fairgate that I was unsupervised, pointing out, that when I quizzed the Project Manager after being tasked to build a riser I was told: “Look Mark you have more experience of this than me, just do it how you think it should be done”.
BMSL refused to acknowledge that I was unsupervised, Fairgate said it was up to whatever the agency said, despite it being me that paid Fairgate the fee to pay me.
I stuck it out for 14 weeks until I found an agency which would pay CIS. Over that 14 weeks I was down £2000 on what I would have been paid CIS.
When I left the job I never received a P45, nor did I receive a P60.
I stuck with the new agency (Fast Track) right up until Late last year.
Over the last 4 years a few of the agencies which refused to pay CIS have now started paying CIS again.

Now I am quite aware that agencies are ripping us off.
Not only do they charge the companies we work for, but they also use IR35 as an excuse to charge us by insisting we get paid through payroll companies.
Problem is, many of the companies we work for are no better.

I have never worked through an agency as a Labourer, Mate or Improver, only as an Electrician or Supervisor.
However, I have spoken to Labourers, Mates and Improvers on sites so I do have some idea as to what and how they get paid. An agency which will pay me CIS will pay Labourers, etc. PAYE for the reasons I have already stated.

Hopefully things will change, but at the moment that’s all we have.

 

[Diydebs]

Paleo, please tell me more . i do the books for an electrician (my son, ssshhh) who is going Ltd ... the accountant wants to do his CIS , VAT which i do currently.so i can argue to keep that.
BUT he is saying they will have to do his payroll. what do they mean as he only has subbies .. but the accountant said it would be for his own wage he took out ,

What does he mean ?
any advice appreciated

Deborah

 

[Diydebs]

spinlondon,.. can you explain what you mean ? should i not let an accountant take over ? he called it payroll, but we only pay subbies so im confused

Deny it all you want, doesn’t change anything, the facts are what they are.
In April 2014 virtually all the agencies started paying through these Umbrella companies.
I had been using a Payroll company called Fairgate Construction Services and had a contract with them to be paid CIS.
I started a new job for an agency called BMSL at the end of March, received my first payment on the 7th of April.
Found I had been paid PAYE and was paying Employer’s NI contribution.
Fairgate changed their name to Fairgate Commercial Contracting and sent me a number of new contracts to sign. Which I never did sign.
I argued with both BMSL and Fairgate that I was unsupervised, pointing out, that when I quizzed the Project Manager after being tasked to build a riser I was told: “Look Mark you have more experience of this than me, just do it how you think it should be done”.
BMSL refused to acknowledge that I was unsupervised, Fairgate said it was up to whatever the agency said, despite it being me that paid Fairgate the fee to pay me.
I stuck it out for 14 weeks until I found an agency which would pay CIS. Over that 14 weeks I was down £2000 on what I would have been paid CIS.
When I left the job I never received a P45, nor did I receive a P60.
I stuck with the new agency (Fast Track) right up until Late last year.
Over the last 4 years a few of the agencies which refused to pay CIS have now started paying CIS again.

Now I am quite aware that agencies are ripping us off.
Not only do they charge the companies we work for, but they also use IR35 as an excuse to charge us by insisting we get paid through payroll companies.
Problem is, many of the companies we work for are no better.

I have never worked through an agency as a Labourer, Mate or Improver, only as an Electrician or Supervisor.
However, I have spoken to Labourers, Mates and Improvers on sites so I do have some idea as to what and how they get paid. An agency which will pay me CIS will pay Labourers, etc. PAYE for the reasons I have already stated.

Hopefully things will change, but at the moment that’s all we have.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My post was in relation to an individual working through agencies.
In your son’s situation, his Ltd Co. will be employing him, which means he may have to tax and NI contributions on his wages.
Many people with Ltd. Cos. Pay themselves a minimum wage below the threshold for tax or NI, then top up their money with dividends.
The minimum wage plus the dividends should be declared to HMRC, via Self Assessment.
The LTD. Co.will have to register with CIS and will receive a UTR number, which have to be supplied to any contractors your son’s Ltd. Co. works for.
The UTR number wouldn’t need to be supplied to individuals.
Your son will also have to deduct CIS tax from any subbies his Ltd. Co. employs, he will have to declare each month how many subbies he is employing (even if it’s none), and if his Ltd. Co. employs himself, declare himself as either a subbie or employee.
His Ltd. Co. will have to obtain the UTR numbers from any subbies, verify them with CIS and deduct 20% tax from their money. Which he will then have to pay to HMRC.
Unverified subbies should have 30% tax deducted.

 

[Deuce]

I stopped working on permanent installation due to CIS. Technically our work doesn't really qualify but so many site's started to have a uniform 'no CIS, no job' type rule and I got tired of arguing.

In the end I became more specialised and ended up work in TV/Films/Events, safely away from all the Construction industry BS.

When it comes to escaping endless red tape, bureaucracy, hmrc reporting and jobsworths, the best thing to do is go niche. Seriously, anyone young and already sick of the all the crap and bother involved in picking up a screwdriver needs to either accept it will only get worse, or have a re-think and train on the job doing something in a specific industry. Mining, production line, TV, Automotive, Sub Sea - all of which have a need for sparks and all of which operate in their own little largely self regulated bubbles.