Self employed guy working for us doing work direct for our client.

[markythesparky]

We have a chap who works for us a lot and who is self employed. We have found out that he may have done some work recently for one of our clients who we have not done anything for in about 6 years or so. Just wondered what your view is on him doing work for a client of ours, albeit 6 years ago, but still working for us. By the way. he knows that the person was a client of ours as he has done work with us for the client.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

What sort of client, and what sort of work were you doing for them?

 

[mattg4321]

It’s a bit cheeky. We had the same years back. He didn’t get anymore work from us. He came off worse imo.

 

[7029 dave]

OK he subs for you, but he is a sole trader so any work is fair game to him.

 

[telectrix]

can't really call it poaching after 6 years. client may have just picked him at random.

 

[snowhead]

After 6 years I call that a old / past customer, not a current client.
As Tel above, could have been a random choice, could have been because the past customer had the Subbies phone number.

I assume the subby is not under any agreement / contract to NOT work for any of your past / previous customers or clients?

 

[Avo Mk8]

I assume the subby is not under any agreement / contract to NOT work for any of your past / previous customers or clients?

Good question, and a minefield!
Say markythesparky's company puts a restrictive covenant in the agreement/contract with the subcontractor (which to be a fair term would need to include a valid reason), they get perilously close to 'controlling' the subcontractor, leading to the possibility him being considered an employee of markythesparky's Co.
The fact that the subcontractor has worked for a past client, without the company's involvement, shows his independence. So that's a good thing!

 

[James]

If you still have a working relationship with this guy, why not ask him about it next time you are on a job together?

if it were me, after 6 years i would not be holding any grudges about the previous customer.
but i would put it to him that in future it would be polite to receive a quick call before taking on similar jobs.

(edit. after all he is not to know if you are currently quoting for that work)

these things can work both ways, i have done sub work for a couple of good local sparks because they are too busy at times.
however when i am busy i will always pass on jobs to them when i am too busy or the job is too big for just myself.

 

[littlespark]

It might be in the best interests of everyone.

Maybe the old customer had a job that a bigger company, that needs to bring in subbies, is too busy to bother with. Ie, only wants big contracts/ jobs… leave the little jobs for one man bands.

 

[markythesparky]

What sort of client, and what sort of work were you doing for them?

Its a restaurant who we worked for. not sure what the work was. Why does it matter?

 

[markythesparky]

can't really call it poaching after 6 years. client may have just picked him at random.

So how long would be ok? He was in the restaurant (our client) eating with his Mrs and was asked by the owner. Subby has done work at the restaurant and at the clients house with us in the past.

 

[markythesparky]

After 6 years I call that a old / past customer, not a current client.
As Tel above, could have been a random choice, could have been because the past customer had the Subbies phone number.

I assume the subby is not under any agreement / contract to NOT work for any of your past / previous customers or clients?

I get all of that and no he's not under any contract. But as I've just asked Tel, what then is a past client and what is a current client?

 

[markythesparky]

If you still have a working relationship with this guy, why not ask him about it next time you are on a job together?

if it were me, after 6 years i would not be holding any grudges about the previous customer.
but i would put it to him that in future it would be polite to receive a quick call before taking on similar jobs.

(edit. after all he is not to know if you are currently quoting for that work)

these things can work both ways, i have done sub work for a couple of good local sparks because they are too busy at times.
however when i am busy i will always pass on jobs to them when i am too busy or the job is too big for just myself.

Yes he has worked for us for over ten years on and off. He still works for us. He gets the vast majority of his work from us to the tune of about £45000 a year.

 

[nicebutdim]

To be fair, I'd expect a subby who was still working for me to be upfront about this sort of situation. It's a matter of courtesy.

 

[markythesparky]

To be fair, I'd expect a subby who was still working for me to be upfront about this sort of situation. It's a matter of courtesy.

And that is my thought too. Destroys any trust.

 

[nicebutdim]

And that is my thought too. Destroys any trust.

It's certainly something I'd be inclined to have a chat about. No laws or contractual obligations have been broken, but I'd want to at least clear the air and see where both parties stand on this (or similar) issues.

 

[markythesparky]

It's certainly something I'd be inclined to have a chat about. No laws or contractual obligations have been broken, but I'd want to at least clear the air and see where both parties stand on this (or similar) issues.

My issue is that if he is happy to do this now, why wouldn't he do it with a client who we worked for a year ago? What is off limits?

 

[nicebutdim]

My issue is that if he is happy to do this now, why would the do it with a client who we worked for a year ago? What is off limits?

I think that's a point you need to direct to the person in question. I don't ---- where I eat, but others might not see an issue with doing so and this guy might not see any problem with his actions.

 

[snowhead]

But as I've just asked Tel, what then is a past client and what is a current client?

A current client is someone you are currently carrying out work for and have not yet invoiced and been paid.
Or someone who has retained you under a contract of some sort.

It's not someone you are currently quoting for (unless the above applies) as that prospective client may have asked for quotes from others.

When a new potential customer / client rings you for a quote do you ask them if they've had work done by anyone else in the last 6 years and if so inform them you can't quote because they are the last company's Client and they aren't allowed to use any one else for their work?

 

[nicebutdim]

A current client is someone you are currently carrying out work for and have not yet invoiced and been paid.
Or someone who has retained you under a contract of some sort.

It's not someone you are currently quoting for (unless the above applies) as that prospective client may have asked for quotes from others.

When a new potential customer / client rings you for a quote do you ask them if they've had work done by anyone else in the last 6 years and if so inform them you can't quote because they are the last company's Client and they aren't allowed to use any one else for their work?

If a contractor was giving you most of your annual work, would you not think to speak to them about working directly for a customer who you've previously undertaken work for as a customer of said contractor?

Unless it was a contractor I wanted to get away from working for, I'd be inclined to afford them the professional courtesy of a heads up about the fact I'd be asked to look at the job in question. I might actually be inclined to point the customer back in the direction of that contractor, depending on the circumstances.

 

[markythesparky]

A current client is someone you are currently carrying out work for and have not yet invoiced and been paid.
Or someone who has retained you under a contract of some sort.

It's not someone you are currently quoting for (unless the above applies) as that prospective client may have asked for quotes from others.

When a new potential customer / client rings you for a quote do you ask them if they've had work done by anyone else in the last 6 years and if so inform them you can't quote because they are the last company's Client and they aren't allowed to use any one else for their work?

Client can ask entirely whom they want to do the work, but if they ask the very guy (who is not a registered electrician) and who the client knows is in employ of someone who was their previous contractor, and more to the point, the guy whom they have asked is still in the employ of said registered company, accepts the work and executes it without any discussion what’s so ever with the company who still give him a lot of work and introduced him to said client in the first place, then I would say that there is a very heavy morally question there and could even be construed as concealment.

 

[cloverman]

Client can ask entirely whom they want to do the work, but if they ask the very guy (who is not a registered electrician) and who the client knows is in employ of someone who was their previous contractor, and more to the point, the guy whom they have asked is still in the employ of said registered company, accepts the work and executes it without any discussion what’s so ever with the company who still give him a lot of work and introduced him to said client in the first place, then I would say that there is a very heavy morally question there and could even be construed as concealment.

I think in today's climate and breed of tradesperson, moralities have changed a lot over the years, I'm old school and yes I wouldn't cut off the hand that feeds me, But things were very different when I was growing up, We had values and respect for people, cant say that there is a lot of it around these days although I obviously wouldn't paint every one with the same brush.
But on the other hand 6 years does seem quite a while and as others have said, Could you really still classed this person as a client ?
I agree with previous statements speak with the guy and get his version of events and perhaps he will see it from your point of view and you can forged some kind of unwritten gentleman's agreement on working for past clients for a period of time, Again though as someone pointed out it could be a slippery slope.
If the guy is doing a professional job whilst working for you and you have no qualms about his abilities, Can you justify losing a valued member of your team (when they are working for you) if it is just a matter of one occasion
As you have said yourself, No laws are being broken and it is down to how much you may think that this guy is going to temp away from you and the business

 

[Timbo]

If the 'client' hasn't used your company for 6 years, stop being a pr@t. If your subby hadn't got the work the client would have got someone else to do it. Obviously he didn't want to use you.
If you don't want said subby to do work for other people, employ him!

 

[suffolkspark]

If the 'client' hasn't used your company for 6 years, stop being a pr@t. If your subby hadn't got the work the client would have got someone else to do it. Obviously he didn't want to use you.
If you don't want said subby to do work for other people, employ him!

@markythesparky I'm also taking the above viewpoint

 

[markythesparky]

If the 'client' hasn't used your company for 6 years, stop being a pr@t. If your subby hadn't got the work the client would have got someone else to do it. Obviously he didn't want to use you.
If you don't want said subby to do work for other people, employ him!

If the 'client' hasn't used your company for 6 years, stop being a pr@t. If your subby hadn't got the work the client would have got someone else to do it. Obviously he didn't want to use you.
If you don't want said subby to do work for other people, employ him!

Not sure I agree. He could have spoken to me about it first which is all I would ask, but I take your point about employing him. Very expensive option though considering he’s earning about £45000 from us presently which will only push my rates up. Seems counter productive considering that he is earning from my quotations which are obviously competitive!

I thank you all for your opinions and for the record they are about 50/50 in each favour. That in itself is revealing about the industry today.

Also for the record, my view is that you don’t bite the hand that feeds you the most, even if that hand has not had its food source from a certain location for a long time. That hand is always searching for the next one. If you choose to go to that food source without advising the hand that feeds you, you should not be surprised to see a three course meal whittle to a bag of crisps. Ultimately, the hand that feeds you has been loyal to you and if you are not in return, expect one of two things, you will run out of food or the food will be more expensive for you, as the source is playing you.

I would say, if you are a subby, by all means have the drive and commitment to have as many clients as you can possibly have and earn as money as you can possibly muster, but do it off your own back and not mine.

But if you choose to do you business in this manner all that you will ultimately achieve is driving prices through the floor. The client is playing you.

As professional Electricians, we are better than this and in my opinion more technically minded than some other trades. We are worth more and I’ve never understood this undercutting procedure as it is self defeating and self destructive.

I’m not a rich man, but I started from scratch, working for someone else and all my 130 odd clients are my own. I’ve never worked for anyone whom I know I have worked for whilst being a subcontractor. I have a good, trustworthy reputation and that takes years to build but days to destroy.