Self employed guy working for us doing work direct for our client.

[nicebutdim]

And that is my thought too. Destroys any trust.

It's certainly something I'd be inclined to have a chat about. No laws or contractual obligations have been broken, but I'd want to at least clear the air and see where both parties stand on this (or similar) issues.

 

[markythesparky]

It's certainly something I'd be inclined to have a chat about. No laws or contractual obligations have been broken, but I'd want to at least clear the air and see where both parties stand on this (or similar) issues.

My issue is that if he is happy to do this now, why wouldn't he do it with a client who we worked for a year ago? What is off limits?

 

[nicebutdim]

My issue is that if he is happy to do this now, why would the do it with a client who we worked for a year ago? What is off limits?

I think that's a point you need to direct to the person in question. I don't ---- where I eat, but others might not see an issue with doing so and this guy might not see any problem with his actions.

 

[snowhead]

But as I've just asked Tel, what then is a past client and what is a current client?

A current client is someone you are currently carrying out work for and have not yet invoiced and been paid.
Or someone who has retained you under a contract of some sort.

It's not someone you are currently quoting for (unless the above applies) as that prospective client may have asked for quotes from others.

When a new potential customer / client rings you for a quote do you ask them if they've had work done by anyone else in the last 6 years and if so inform them you can't quote because they are the last company's Client and they aren't allowed to use any one else for their work?

 

[nicebutdim]

A current client is someone you are currently carrying out work for and have not yet invoiced and been paid.
Or someone who has retained you under a contract of some sort.

It's not someone you are currently quoting for (unless the above applies) as that prospective client may have asked for quotes from others.

When a new potential customer / client rings you for a quote do you ask them if they've had work done by anyone else in the last 6 years and if so inform them you can't quote because they are the last company's Client and they aren't allowed to use any one else for their work?

If a contractor was giving you most of your annual work, would you not think to speak to them about working directly for a customer who you've previously undertaken work for as a customer of said contractor?

Unless it was a contractor I wanted to get away from working for, I'd be inclined to afford them the professional courtesy of a heads up about the fact I'd be asked to look at the job in question. I might actually be inclined to point the customer back in the direction of that contractor, depending on the circumstances.

 

[markythesparky]

A current client is someone you are currently carrying out work for and have not yet invoiced and been paid.
Or someone who has retained you under a contract of some sort.

It's not someone you are currently quoting for (unless the above applies) as that prospective client may have asked for quotes from others.

When a new potential customer / client rings you for a quote do you ask them if they've had work done by anyone else in the last 6 years and if so inform them you can't quote because they are the last company's Client and they aren't allowed to use any one else for their work?

Client can ask entirely whom they want to do the work, but if they ask the very guy (who is not a registered electrician) and who the client knows is in employ of someone who was their previous contractor, and more to the point, the guy whom they have asked is still in the employ of said registered company, accepts the work and executes it without any discussion what’s so ever with the company who still give him a lot of work and introduced him to said client in the first place, then I would say that there is a very heavy morally question there and could even be construed as concealment.

 

[cloverman]

Client can ask entirely whom they want to do the work, but if they ask the very guy (who is not a registered electrician) and who the client knows is in employ of someone who was their previous contractor, and more to the point, the guy whom they have asked is still in the employ of said registered company, accepts the work and executes it without any discussion what’s so ever with the company who still give him a lot of work and introduced him to said client in the first place, then I would say that there is a very heavy morally question there and could even be construed as concealment.

I think in today's climate and breed of tradesperson, moralities have changed a lot over the years, I'm old school and yes I wouldn't cut off the hand that feeds me, But things were very different when I was growing up, We had values and respect for people, cant say that there is a lot of it around these days although I obviously wouldn't paint every one with the same brush.
But on the other hand 6 years does seem quite a while and as others have said, Could you really still classed this person as a client ?
I agree with previous statements speak with the guy and get his version of events and perhaps he will see it from your point of view and you can forged some kind of unwritten gentleman's agreement on working for past clients for a period of time, Again though as someone pointed out it could be a slippery slope.
If the guy is doing a professional job whilst working for you and you have no qualms about his abilities, Can you justify losing a valued member of your team (when they are working for you) if it is just a matter of one occasion
As you have said yourself, No laws are being broken and it is down to how much you may think that this guy is going to temp away from you and the business

 

[Timbo]

If the 'client' hasn't used your company for 6 years, stop being a pr@t. If your subby hadn't got the work the client would have got someone else to do it. Obviously he didn't want to use you.
If you don't want said subby to do work for other people, employ him!

 

[suffolkspark]

If the 'client' hasn't used your company for 6 years, stop being a pr@t. If your subby hadn't got the work the client would have got someone else to do it. Obviously he didn't want to use you.
If you don't want said subby to do work for other people, employ him!

@markythesparky I'm also taking the above viewpoint

 

[markythesparky]

If the 'client' hasn't used your company for 6 years, stop being a pr@t. If your subby hadn't got the work the client would have got someone else to do it. Obviously he didn't want to use you.
If you don't want said subby to do work for other people, employ him!

If the 'client' hasn't used your company for 6 years, stop being a pr@t. If your subby hadn't got the work the client would have got someone else to do it. Obviously he didn't want to use you.
If you don't want said subby to do work for other people, employ him!

Not sure I agree. He could have spoken to me about it first which is all I would ask, but I take your point about employing him. Very expensive option though considering he’s earning about £45000 from us presently which will only push my rates up. Seems counter productive considering that he is earning from my quotations which are obviously competitive!

I thank you all for your opinions and for the record they are about 50/50 in each favour. That in itself is revealing about the industry today.

Also for the record, my view is that you don’t bite the hand that feeds you the most, even if that hand has not had its food source from a certain location for a long time. That hand is always searching for the next one. If you choose to go to that food source without advising the hand that feeds you, you should not be surprised to see a three course meal whittle to a bag of crisps. Ultimately, the hand that feeds you has been loyal to you and if you are not in return, expect one of two things, you will run out of food or the food will be more expensive for you, as the source is playing you.

I would say, if you are a subby, by all means have the drive and commitment to have as many clients as you can possibly have and earn as money as you can possibly muster, but do it off your own back and not mine.

But if you choose to do you business in this manner all that you will ultimately achieve is driving prices through the floor. The client is playing you.

As professional Electricians, we are better than this and in my opinion more technically minded than some other trades. We are worth more and I’ve never understood this undercutting procedure as it is self defeating and self destructive.

I’m not a rich man, but I started from scratch, working for someone else and all my 130 odd clients are my own. I’ve never worked for anyone whom I know I have worked for whilst being a subcontractor. I have a good, trustworthy reputation and that takes years to build but days to destroy.

 

[DMElec.1]

It's simple, just fire him...oh wait, you can't, then stop his pension you contribute to... Oh wait you don't... Well...er... That's right he's not your employee! You get what you pay for, you employ him that's one thing, you sub out to him that's another, I wish people would get this clarified, you have NO right to treat people you do not fully or partially employ as employed, sorry but I get this all the time, you want the employee route, employ me, with all that entails, you want the flexibility a subbie gives you then subcontract me, but don't mix the two. Simples, sorry, rant over...

 

[LukeD]

If you have not seen the client for 12 months ..then they really are not clients .

 

[LukeD]

I lost (My gain) a good friend years ago.He was a Excellent specialist painter . The special effects etc unreal . He put me onto a job doing wiring in the dining room (Grade 1 ) so lots of paper work and site visits . He was also the "project manager" .4 months later client called me and asked if I could take over the entire Job as my friend was never turning up. He was building "teams" from mates i he drank with and knew little about .I think he was a coke head.. Anyway .I told her to inform him and I mentioned it . He then asked me for 15% commission as he introduced me to her !!!

 

[baldelectrician]

It's simple, just fire him...oh wait, you can't, then stop his pension you contribute to... Oh wait you don't... Well...er... That's right he's not your employee! You get what you pay for, you employ him that's one thing, you sub out to him that's another, I wish people would get this clarified, you have NO right to treat people you do not fully or partially employ as employed, sorry but I get this all the time, you want the employee route, employ me, with all that entails, you want the flexibility a subbie gives you then subcontract me, but don't mix the two. Simples, sorry, rant over...

I agree

If he is self employed and you have no agreement in place stating he cannot work direct then it is your loss

This is the thing with employers- I was forced to go self eomployed 20 years ago so the employer could save money on national insurance etc.
Same employer had a huff when I refused a job until I pointed out that when I was an employee he could discipline me- as a self emmployed person he had to take it on the chin.

They are the reason I went self employed and started up on my own

 

[ipf]

I've only just seen this from nine months back. Interesting.
Who knows a blokes way of thinking. It seems the client wanted to pay less for the work being done, knowing the sub contractor from past jobs.
Six years is long time.
The sub contractor's doing nothing wrong. However, being the main contactor and providing the subbie with so much employment, I'd be disappointed not to be brought into the picture. No problem after that........just tell him his rate's stationary for the next 6 years. .... It's called being up front with people, especially those you trust (42k per year worth, in this case).