Should I change for a thicker wires?

[marconi]

Let us proceed in stages. Obtain one 12V car battery (say 100Ah) and connect it to one of the 12V output of the generator using thick cables. Connect one olive machine across the battery and see how it performs. Then connect the second machine across the battery and see how you get on with two machines working on one battery charged by the 12V output of the gennie. Remember the fuse or circuit breaker - OR BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO SHORT CABLES. Connect red(+) to red(+) and black(-) to black(-).

If you can, charge the battery up first for 4-5 hours unless you are certain the battery is already charged.

Post a picture of your set up and also a picture of a match against the side of one of the cable so I can guess what size cables you are using.

DO NOT CONNECT A BATTERY OR OLIVE MACHINE DIRECTLY TO THE 230v BLUE SOCKET SUPPLY.

 

[Shadyabs]

Let us proceed in stages. Obtain one 12V car battery (say 100Ah) and connect it to one of the 12V output of the generator using thick cables. Connect one olive machine across the battery and see how it performs. Then connect the second machine across the battery and see how you get on with two machines working on one battery charged by the 12V output of the gennie. Remember the fuse or circuit breaker - OR BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO SHORT CABLES. Connect red(+) to red(+) and black(-) to black(-).

If you can, charge the battery up first for 4-5 hours unless you are certain the battery is already charged.

Post a picture of your set up and also a picture of a match against the side of one of the cable so I can guess what size cables you are using.

DO NOT CONNECT A BATTERY OR OLIVE MACHINE DIRECTLY TO THE 230v BLUE SOCKET SUPPLY.

Marconi i appreciate it very much your help!

But, you know battery makes things more complex and less convenient it's heavy! (i did connect the machines directly to the tractor's battery and they worked pretty good)

Why not connect battery or machines directly to the AC outlet? Because of the volt big difference? Might explode..
* but don't you think that the machines had a regulator/volt adapter?

I really thank you for your help ! Don't be turned down by my response

 

[marconi]

There are three reasons why you must not connect the 12V dc olive machines directly to the blue 230V ac sockets.

1. The voltage output from the ac blue sockets is 230V and your machines require 12Volts.

2. The electricity from the 230V blue socket is alternating current whereas your olive machines require direct current.

3. Your olive machines are only electrically safe to use when supplied with 12Volts.

So, banish the thought from your head about connecting the olive machines directly to the blue socket.

To power the olive machines using the blue socket you would need the 230V ac to 12V dc converter/battery charger I metnioned earlier.
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Here is an example of a battery charge which is powered by 230V ac and outputs 12V dc. The single red and black leads are connected to the +(red) and -(black) of the 12 V battery and the 230V plug is put into a socket. This is one is not good enough for your job.

 

[Shadyabs]

There are three reasons why you must not connect the 12V dc olive machines directly to the blue 230V ac sockets.

1. The voltage output from the ac blue sockets is 230V and your machines require 12Volts.

2. The electricity from the 230V blue socket is alternating current whereas your olive machines require direct current.

3. Your olive machines are only electrically safe to use when supplied with 12Volts.

So, banish the thought from your head about connecting the olive machines directly to the blue socket.

To power the olive machines using the blue socket you would need the 230V ac to 12V dc converter/battery charger I metnioned earlier.
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Here is an example of a battery charge which is powered by 230V ac and outputs 12V dc. The single red and black leads are connected to the +(red) and -(black) of the 12 V battery and the 230V plug is put into a socket. This is one is not good enough for your job.

Ok got it.
Just let me clear things out..
Why eventually my generator not giving enough power? Is it due to the lengthy cables or because of the varying voltage out of the DC ports (which runs between 11-14.5 volts) ?

Or is it the quality of the generator itself?

Thanks in advance

 

[davesparks]

Ok got it.
Just let me clear things out..
Why eventually my generator not giving enough power? Is it due to the lengthy cables or because of the varying voltage out of the DC ports (which runs between 11-14.5 volts) ?

Or is it the quality of the generator itself?

Thanks in advance

Most likely the generator is too small to give enough output power. There doesn't seem to be a power rating for tbe DC output, but since it is called a battery charging output I very much doubt it is capable of providing a lot of power.

 

[marconi]

Your generator is actually two generators. One outputs 230V ac and 850Watts and the other 14V dc at 20A which is 12 x 20 = 240Watts. The maximum power out of the 230V scoket is 850 Watts. The maximum power out of both 12V terminals is 240W (ie 100W from ones on left and 140W from one on right). Total ac and dc power is 850 + 240 = 1090W.

The generator struggles to power two olive machines because their combined power requirement is more than the 12V generator can provide, so they slow down the generator a bit which reduces its voltage output which reduces the power consumed by the olive machines motors which reduces the current flowing between the generator and the olive machines until the ability of the generator to supply power - its lower output voltage times the current is equal to that consumed by the olive machines. In electrical engineering this is called droop - the lowering of output voltage with increasing load for a generator, and the lowering of output power of a motor as its input voltage reduces. If possible the motor and generator interact through their individual droop characteristics to find a point of equilibrium where torque times speed of the generator = torque times speed of olive motor.

With regards to the length of cable - it takes energy to move electricity along wires and this energy appears as heat - the wires warm up. So if you put int X amount of energy at the supply end of the wire you will only be able to use X-Y at the load end were Y is the heat loss I just mentioned. To keep the the heat loss small the wires should be short and thick. This is especially important at low voltages such as 12V because it takes larger currents to move energy than at a higher voltage. eg: 12Volts x 10Amps -= 120Watts could be moved by 120Volts at 1 Amp since 120 x 1 = 120W.

The amount of heat loss depend not on the current but the current x the current. So in my example, the heat loss depends on 10 x 10 = 100 not 1 x 1 = 1 which means the heat loss in the connecting cable at the lower voltage of 12V is 100 times greater than at 120 V.

Wires have a property called resistance R which is a measure of how difficult it is for electricity to flow. Short thick wires have less resistance than long thin ones. The power lost in a wire is the current(I) x the current x the resistance IsquaredR = I x I x R.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - just to add to @marconi reply, it’s very likely your existing generator has the 12V capability for standby battery charging and it’s main game is generating 230V AC. That said, they do make generators specifically for 12V. These typically have 50A or more capability and are based (cheap ones anyway ) around automotive alternators. And as per M’s post are intended to work with battery storage.
I like the idea of running one machine off the generator’s 12V output and the other via the 230V output and a battery charger.

 

[marconi]

Are you using a long pole olive shaker like this:

Motoabbacchiatore/ Beater/ Shake Olive Electric 12V - ZLOME04 | eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/113715902323?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=113715902323&targetid=521080708771&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045003&poi=&campaignid=7412990587&mkgroupid=76068634930&rlsatarget=pla-521080708771&abcId=1139356&merchantid=138814631&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgNXtBRC6ARIsAIPP7Rs5awNiTHqqkgdE9PZcRsmFG3_NxJ7icAdn3ZhUl78OmR4eevG5rG8aAiBgEALw_wcB

These harvester are in the range 100-200W at 12 V

How many olive trees do you have? And you own a tractor - please confirm.

You may not be using the best technology for your harvesting.

 

[DPG]

What a forum - someone is now getting advice on olive harvesting techniques! Nice one Marconi

 

[marconi]

Thank you DPG. The line of thought is: London Underground had/has a problem with sweltering heat in summer on its platforms and in its trains , and like most companies wants to reduce its electricity consumption. So it took a long, hard look at the types of dc motors which propelled its trains and decided to ......?

 

[DPG]

Thank you DPG. The line of thought is: London Underground had/has a problem with sweltering heat in summer and like most companies wants to reduce its electricity consumption. So it took a long, hard look at the types of dc motors which propelled its trains and decided to ......?

......harvest olives ??

 

[davesparks]

Thank you DPG. The line of thought is: London Underground had/has a problem with sweltering heat in summer on its platforms and in its trains , and like most companies wants to reduce its electricity consumption. So it took a long, hard look at the types of dc motors which propelled its trains and decided to ......?

Carry on using 50 year old trains to make the ride as rough as possible?

Signed

A regular user of the Bakerloo line.

 

[marconi]

Carry on using 50 year old trains to make the ride as rough as possible?

Signed

A regular user of the Bakerloo line.

Patience - your day will arrive after which you will travel in some modicum of improved comfort. Anyway, I think a man of your calibre and curiosity would be easily pre-occupied thinking about things to worry little about some brief temporal discomfort.

 

[marconi]

Permanent magnet motors(PMM). I was wondering whether there are any PMM powered olive harvester poles which would be more energy efficient than those the OP uses now - and thus consume less power and current at 12Volts dc.

Noting your need for convenience, you could but the battery(batteries) beside the generator (on a wheeled cart).

Please keep us informed on what you do to improve performance.

 

[marconi]

Dear Shadyabs,

I managed to find a telescopic olive harvester which uses a permanent magnet motor running off 12V and a car battery (80-100Ah). This one will be more efficient in the way it uses electrical energy and converts it into mechanical energy to agitate the olives. It is also more powerful (500W). You may/will still need to connect your generator to the battery to maintain performance if you operate the machine all day - it all depends on how long you use the harvester for. If you used this PMM machine you would need a battery for each one because it draws about 40Amps. Then again, a more powerful motor may do the work of your current two in the same time or less.

Brumar Magiko 4x4 Telescopic Olive Harvester 8033655482008 | eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183572481738