skill been taken out the trade?

[liamnewbury]

Does anyone else feel that alot of skill has been taken out of our trade, things are becoming easier and easier to do. The days of using metal conduit and single in houses is long gone. If the standards were alot higher would we be worth more money and would there be less rogue traders about?

opinions please

 

[johnc]

yes I sort of agree,when I started my apprenticeship in the mid eighties we did alot of banks and office blocks,steel conduit,steel trunking and fire alarms in MICC.Every light fitting had a ceiling rose above it,none of this daisy chain lighting,no busbar track,only raised floor in computer rooms(and they were tiny).
But on the other hand things change,jobs have to be finished quick,tighter deadlines etc.Manufacturers have developed and improved products ,so some skills get lost(when was the last time you did MICC) but new skills get learned.I enjoy learning new skills it keeps me interested in the job that I love.

Read your reply and noticed you have MICC experience.
Is there a good way to join the old copper sheath MICC?
Just drilled through some and if possible would like to make good.
Many thanks
Johnc

 

[teflonmick]

its happening in all trades instead of employers paying a plumber,joiner,gas engineer, and electrician, they just want to pay one person to do the lot.

 

[Des 56]

Part of what I posted
rouges and chancers have therefore been handed a nice opportunity, to sneak past the traditional routes and/ or be accepted by the very low Government competence standards, which has harmed the trade terminally,

I think some are rightly offemded by my and others comments, because as in my case,the term rouge wasn't meant to refer to Trained electricians, whether they are apprentice trained or more modern intensive trained and gaining the practical skills on the job

My own reference was to the extra low entrance criteria that the schemes have accepted and who have now been slated by the government for doing so
I had in mind the ultimate in danger in our trade,the guy around the corner who potched a bit
That same guy can now do a multi guess regulations exam, have no training in the actual trade and become accepted and registered
Once the relevant certificate is gained,practically, it means automatic entrance to the schemes

I have heard of nobody whatsoever who has been rejected.others may have,but they would be few and far between

I will apologise to those of you who have trained in another industry or the forces and have done their best to retrain for another sector of electrics,those comments were not for one moment intended to include fellow electricians from other industries

 

[baldsparkies]

Bottom line.
Its all about competence, and competence is NOT knowing what you can do.
It's about knowing what you can't do.

A rogue is more about a persons character,nothing to do with qualifications or experience.
Like any trade or life in general you can only get out what your prepared to put in.
There is no substitute for training and experience both practical and theoretical knowledge run side by side in our trade.
As long as people work within the limitations of quick fix courses I have no problem with them whatsoever, after all we all need to make a living.

But, and its a big but, know your limitations and know them well, otherwise you run the risk of endangering life and property and that's not acceptable at any cost and applies to us all.

 

[Jason Smith]

Sorry mate,gonna have to have a pop at you, please dont take it personally. The multi tick boxes as answers for the exam are impossible to pass unless you know the answer. Every course I have been on requires at least a 90% pass rate, over up to 40 questions. The other three wrong answers you could tick are so close to the real answer in their content that you ahve to know the answer to succeed. An average course involve probably 8-ten exams, and of course the final biggie, a national on line Gola. Your allowed to take it if you have passed all the other internal exams. Thats why you probably say everyone passes, well all I can say is that thats everyone that is allowed to take the exam. Many people have to go back for lots of resits on the internal exams, and can re sit the final as well. On my course there were eight of us, two passed, but the remaining 6 havetaken over ayear to get to apoint where they can pass. some stil havent. It is not as easy as you think. I will say however, that if you ever get your hands on a copy of the final exam, do not be dismayed at how easy itis and the fact itsopen book. The books in the final are no use to you at all. The internal exams are not open book, and are very difficult in comparison to the final.
I was once involved in training (another field) and these exams are to explore your knowledge. Try to pass one with no knowledge of the subject, and it is actually not possible. (except the jtml health and safety exam !!)

 

[silva.foxx]

I don't think the skill has been taken out of the trade but the need for certain skills seems to be on the decline.

I've been a factory spark for over 15 years and I can't remember the last time I did conduit or trunking work. This basket stuff seems to have taken over with SWA. My work has gone from hardwiring masses of relays and contactors to programming PLCs.

Technology and it's advancements is playing a large part of the demise of the Master of Electrickery, so too has the evolution of t'interweb. Any info is available at your click of a mouse button that was at one time only available from the crusty old codger training you through the long apprenticeship.

I'm no longer a factory spark... I'm told I'm now an electrical technician. I'm still doing the job I trained for plus more. Although I'm not installing large supplies, I'm still faultfinding circuits and troubleshooting applications but entering the digital era by getting involved in programming microelectronics, parameterising drives, computer networking, more IT stuff really. Plus getting involved in the fitter's trade, oh...and welder's trade...yeah, secretary's trade too with all word processing, spreadsheets, printing off reels of paper, photocopying, calls, etc...

As for rogues entering the trade...hasn't it always been this way. It's easier now as so much info is available. These fast-track courses used to peev me as I had to do 4 years solid. My apprenticeship involved me learning at college 1 day per week then using what I'd learnt to gain experience in the hands-on at work. These fast track courses are giving the lessons I had but not the experience I got from doing it in work.

.

 

[brucelee]

hi everyone
good post i too have paid a large amount of money for a intensive training course, and recieved more training and understanding on the short course than i did when i was a apprentice electrician in 1986. where we did 6 week college 4 week work i never finished my apprenticeship as i gave it up as i felt i wasnt learning and being treated like a slave/dogs body etc. i have always regretted and over the years been involved in wiring new build for wainhomes for a electrical installation company we four of us had two sites when i started in 1989 and when i left in 93 because of last recession we had 22 sites being done by 5 of us then it all went into recession i have never had any complaints about any of my work in the last 24 yrs of being involved on and off with electrics including maintainance on commercial, rewires etc. but when my partner was left disabled in 2005 i had to be her carer but still wanted to return to electrics so last july went on one of these courses for £4020 and learned more in a short time than i ever did at college and actually doing the work far outweighs any theory as experience is king i have paid a lot of money to get qualified and over years have had to sort out many so called qualified electricians work as it was dog rough so it goes both ways. It is all about pride in your work and if your willing to learn and be be big enough to ask if not sure instead of bodging it. I am now qualified to c&g 2382,2377,2393 and logic full scope and got 100% in some of these a mgger mft 1552 the regs and onsite guide , also i am about to do 2391altogether when set up £9000 .just because it was quicker doesnt mean it was not as good they teach you everything you need to know and how to do it competently so in answer to all above it depends on the person a bodge it and scarper merchant or someone who takes pride in all they do and i i have not spent all this time and money to do bodge it jobs or anything illegal this is why i did the course

 

[dickie]

Here Here Well said !!!!

 

[Jason Smith]

Right lads and ladies, lets gang up on the buggers. We shall form the Competent Reliable, and Part P club, to defend ourselfs against the persons who think we are any less capable than them of designing and installing a domestic re wire. We shall offer up our workmanship against theirs, even though we did an intensive course. We shall however, bow down to their superior knowledge, for that is the truth. We shall always refer to them for advice, for they are the fathers of our industry, we need them. We shall unite against cowboys as they exist weather superqualified or intensivly trained.
Oh, hang on, any suggestions for the name of our of our new alliance? just realised it spells CRAP. -Seriously, lets have a laugh, we need to, its a bloody responsible job, I feel the thread through this message reflects the truth.

 

[gaffer]

Read your reply and noticed you have MICC experience.
Is there a good way to join the old copper sheath MICC?
Just drilled through some and if possible would like to make good.
Many thanks
Johnc

Hi John I assume you drilled through it with a masonry bit.And that the cable was concealed in a wall.
Without seeing the job its had to say,but you will carefully have to expose the cable enough to do some sort of repair.You could pot and gland into a galv thru box with straight thru crimps and have the box lid flush with the wall.Hope this helps,maybe you could post a photo?

 

[Cueball]

Gaffer,

Apologies if this seems like nit-picking but I've always thought crimping MICC is a bit of a no-no. Best bet I would have thought is connector block. I've worked with a mob that had this as a one of the questions in their trrade test and it has caught a lot of lads out. I think crimping any solid cores is a non-starter although I'm willing to be corrected.

Cheers,

Cueball

 

[sparks72]

I left the commercial sector a few years ago because of the crap that was being drafted in
at a cheaper rate, we were up in arms 13 years ago because some idiot in the industry suggested
that we had a more mates on site to do the tray,trunking & conduit, that would have basically put a majority
of Electricians out of work.

 

[lee sandland]

so, let me see if i understand this discussion.
You are saying that because i have signed up to a course provider, which is not a local colledge, doing evening classes, nor do they provide an 'apprenticeship' (i'm 45 years old, so that would be out of the question) that upon completion of my course, which is all c&g certified, that i will be a 'rouge trader' incapable of installing anyting correctly or safely?
I trained as an electrician in the royal navy (although we were called weapons engineer mechanics then) and after serving my time, i came into the public sector but decided thst i wanted to do other things, apparhently i was not qualified to be a 'real electrican' anyway,
i now have the opportunity to get back into the trade, and the only way i can achieve this is through one of the (so called con-artist) training courses, i have a family to support and mortgage to pay the same as you guys so full time education is not an option. When i finish the course i will be qualified to a good standard and i know that experience is everything but with people like you around the experience can never be gained or if we set up on our own we are the lowest of the low con-artists and rougue traders. I know that these people are out there ripping the public off , but please don't tar everybody with the same brush, give some of us a bit of credit for the fact that we are capable and want to do a safe and efficient job in whichever sector of the industry we decide to work in.

Sorry if this offends anyone but to be frank, i'm offended by the attitude of some members of this forum.

nice one

 

[ghost]

Gaffer,

Apologies if this seems like nit-picking but I've always thought crimping MICC is a bit of a no-no. Best bet I would have thought is connector block. I've worked with a mob that had this as a one of the questions in their trrade test and it has caught a lot of lads out. I think crimping any solid cores is a non-starter although I'm willing to be corrected.

Cheers,

Cueball

I think you are refering to when the circuit is a fire retardant circuit. I have done many fire alarm pyro jobs over the years and the prefered joint is a ceramic connector block, as opposed to a pvc block.
I personally cannot see any problem with using crimps on solid cores, if they are fitted using the correct tool, ie a ratchet crimper. The ratchet crimper applies a force to the joint that cold welds the crimp to the cable core, as long as the correct size crimp for the cable being jointed is used. Remember, joints should never be made in trunking, only designated joint boxes.

 

[bugsy]

No the skill has not been taken out the trade - It's just not regulated .DIY programmes don't help -
Ask the average house basher ( excluding proper sparkies I hasten to add ) about volt drop . earth loops and correction factors and he won't have a clue